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Rochelle Reiter: [00:00:00] This is The 19, a podcast that delivers marketing insights from Orange Label in 19 minutes or less. This year, the agency is celebrating 50 years of working with established brands that are driven by a fearless entrepreneurial mindset. What does this mean for you? It means enriched stories and conversations with marketing and leadership experts aimed at improving lives.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:00:29] Hello and welcome to The 19: Entrepreneur Edition! I’m Rochelle Reiter, President of Orange Label. In the five years that we’ve hosted The 19, we’ve had the opportunity to connect with experts on a variety of topics, from company culture to brand photography and how to deliver the best experiences for your brand. The one thing I love about podcasts is that they can teach you something new very clearly. I’m not the only one who loves podcasts. Statista estimates that listenership will reach 160 million in the US in 2023. Our Social media Specialist, Samantha, is studying to get her Masters in Mass Communication and social media marketing, and she connected us with a professor who shares the team’s affinity for podcasts and has a deep understanding of the opportunities that they hold for brands. Without further ado, here’s Learning and development professional and University of Florida professor Heidi Kirby. Heidi, welcome to The 19. We’re so excited to have you here today!

Heidi Kirby: [00:01:25] Thanks for having me. I’m glad to be here.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:01:32] So can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your experience with podcasting?

Heidi Kirby: [00:01:37] Yeah, so podcasting comes to me by way of my working experience. And so I started my career as a college professor and eventually, after several years, moved into still learning and still education, but in the corporate space, right? So corporate training. And while I was making that career shift, I was listening to a lot of industry podcasts. But then as somebody who is creating learning experiences for people at organizations, I quickly recognized it as a method to help my learners and another way to deliver information. And so I think it was at three different organizations where I pitched with varying levels of seriousness, a podcast at those different organizations. But it was for a small pre-seed startup that was building a mobile learning management system that I finally had my, my podcast, my podcast baby was born. And so we were trying to build and promote this mobile learning management system. And I said, Well, we need to hit the people in the industry who are going to buy this. Let’s do a podcast and then just have the product be an ad spot. But in the podcast, just talk about learning and development so that people know that we know what we’re talking about. So that’s how my podcast was born, and I ended up not continuing my contract with that startup, but I ended up keeping the podcast. And so it’s now become like a personal thing and it’s still going. And recently one of my colleagues in the field, TA, is an instructional designer for University of Florida, said, Hey, will you teach podcasting at University of Florida? And my first reaction was to me, yeah. And then I thought about it and I was like, Well, I do have a podcast and I have taught college before and I do have a grad degree. So yeah, I guess so. And so that’s how I ended up then also teaching podcasting.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:03:41] So podcasting has opened up plenty of doors for you?

Heidi Kirby: [00:03:44] Absolutely. It’s really allowed me to create a personal brand. I have my day job in customer education, but I also do like learning culture and learning strategy consulting on the side. I’ve done coaching for new instructional designers in the field on the side, and so it really has helped me not only build my network to a global level, but also to keep up with trends in the field, right? Like I get my professional development from recording episodes with different experts in the field. So yeah, absolutely.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:04:19] What have you seen are the benefits for brands that start a podcast?

Heidi Kirby: [00:04:23] With so many different ways to consume information out there? You think of just all the different methods through which you can communicate with your audience. And there’s just so many, you know, email newsletters, social media, like all of the different kinds of social media, right? Conferences, webinars, video, YouTube channels, all these different methods to connect with your audience. Podcasting is just one more channel for content creation that is lower, lower production time than, say, videos or YouTube or something like that, but also like more engaging than emails or some of the other other webinars. Right. And so it’s a relatively low effort, high impact way to get your content out there.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:05:14] What would you say are some amazing best practice podcasts that come to mind as great examples for our listeners?

Heidi Kirby: [00:05:22] I want to talk about three different brands. Some you’ve probably heard of, one you may not have, but Duolingo is just killing it in branding across all media. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen Duolingo TikTok, but it is a sight to behold.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:05:40] Oh, I must check it out right after this!

Heidi Kirby: [00:05:43] Yeah, it’s something else. Like, I don’t even have the Duolingo app on my phone. Duolingo is a language learning app, but there are podcasts. They have four separate podcasts. They have Spanish for English speakers, French for English speakers, English for Spanish speakers and English for for Portuguese speakers. And each one of those podcasts is done both in the native language and then also with pieces parts in the language that you’re trying to learn. And so it really creates kind of an immersive experience where there’s enough like narration in your native language sprinkled in, where if you don’t understand everything in the language that you’re trying to learn, you still get the overall picture. But it’s also scripted in such a way that it’s like beginner language. So it’s something that you should easily be able to follow along with. So it takes like that idea of language learning and what we know about language learning, which is the more immersive the experience, the better. And the more you retain the information, it just puts you right into that. So that’s a really great one. And then Zendium is the name of a toothpaste slash mouthwash supplier in the UK.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:07:01] Okay.

Heidi Kirby: [00:07:01] But what they’ve done is they’ve started two minute podcasts on health and wellbeing and so there’s like little meditations or little stretches you can do that are specifically designed to be listened to while you brush your teeth.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:07:18] Brilliant!

Heidi Kirby: [00:07:19] Yes!

Rochelle Reiter: [00:07:20] That’s brilliant!

Heidi Kirby: [00:07:21] Yes and then they’ve also now started a kids version as well. So like just on kid friendly topics, telling stories that again, 2 minutes long, just intended to be listened to while you brush your teeth. And if you’re like me, I have a Google home in my bathroom specifically to listen to podcasts or music or whatever while I’m getting ready. So yeah, definitely that’s another one that even though the brand is not as popular. So clever, right?

Rochelle Reiter: [00:07:50] A branded experience for sure.

Heidi Kirby: [00:07:52] Absolutely. Yeah. And so for then, probably the most well known brand, Trader Joe’s, we recently got a Trader Joe’s in my area. And so their their podcast has become somewhat relevant to me personally because it just goes through and talks about all the new products that they have in their store. And it’s hosted by two people that actually work for Trader Joe’s and they tell you about how they choose the products that they sell in stores. They have like live tastings on the podcast of different products, and it’s just a really cool take on the grocery advertising, right? Because if you think about it, when’s the last time that you looked at like a weekly grocery circular?

Rochelle Reiter: [00:08:43] Right, right. What is it about these branded podcasts that sets them apart?

Heidi Kirby: [00:08:49] I think there’s two main things. I think that they really understand the podcasting medium, right? Like they really understand how they can customize a podcast for their specific brand and audience. And then the other thing is that audience piece, right? They are speaking directly to their audience and they really know who the audience is. And I think that having both of those things in place is really why they’re crushing it.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:09:15] Yeah, I agree. We see this question come up a lot. How can a brand determine and measure the success of their podcast in a meaningful way?

Heidi Kirby: [00:09:24] So it can be a little bit difficult, right? Because there’s not the same level of tracking for podcasts, but there are some quantitative things that you can measure depending on your hosting platform and what kind of statistics they provide. So you can look at traffic, where your downloads are coming from, which devices your downloads are coming from, how many downloads you’re getting per episode, how many people are subscribing to the podcast. So different things like that. And then my hosting platform provides me those statistics that then I can break down further by time period episode, I can kind of just splice the info as I need it. And that’s actually helped me to make some tweaks in the way that I produce content, right? So for instance, I was noticing that my episodes that were longer than 30 minutes, we’re getting a lot less downloads than anything, 30 minutes or less. So I was able to just make that small tweak of wrapping up conversations that like the 25 minute mark. And so that’s one way. And then also if you have an engagement survey for your product or service, like how did you hear about us? You can go ahead and follow your leads from the podcast that way. But there’s also a lot of qualitative ways that you can measure the success of your podcast to right? So if you’re releasing to platforms where people can provide reviews, you can ask people to give you reviews, and then you can take kind of that qualitative feedback and use that to make some changes. But also, are there industry leaders who are listening to providing reviews for subscribing to or even offering to be a guest on your podcast? That’s another indication that you’re doing a good job, right? For me, a big milestone was when I was able to stop asking all of my friends to come on my podcast. And when people started approaching me who I’d never met and said, Hey, I’d love to be on your podcast.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:11:30] Right. That’s always a good feeling.

Heidi Kirby: [00:11:32] Yeah, absolutely.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:11:34] Are there benefits for brands to start their own podcast versus just appearing in another podcast on an ad or a commercial? What are your thoughts on that?

Heidi Kirby: [00:11:42] I think the number one benefit is creative control. Right. And, you know, if you’re running an ad spot on someone else’s podcast, like, yeah, there are probably some parameters that you can set up. Like, okay, what’s the podcast about? What are you going to be talking about? But you can’t truly control the message of the podcast where your ad appears, or even necessarily that episode on which your ad appears. You also can’t control the longevity of the content, right? So you might have agreed to guaranteed 30 days, but will the podcast go away after that? Will it stop being hosted? Is it something that just kind of floats off into the ether and nobody hears it anymore? Right. So it really allows you to take that control and control the message and control the branding and the guests and how long the content exists. So I think that that’s the biggest piece is that control over the content and creative control.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:12:47] Right, that’s so important. In your course, you talk about brand archetypes as a means of inspiring your students when they create their podcasts. Can you share a little bit more about this?

Heidi Kirby: [00:12:58] Yeah. So the idea of connecting brand archetypes to podcasts, I can’t take credit for. My fellow podcaster friend Leslie Early introduced the idea to me, but a ton of people have been using brand archetypes for all kinds of marketing for a long time, but they’re based on if you’re familiar with psychology, the 12 Jungian Archetypes. It’s this idea that people fit somewhere within these 12 archetypes, and that’s who they are. And the idea in connecting them to a podcast is that by personifying your podcast, you’re making it more connectable, if you will, and you’re making it so that it’s easier to connect with. But it also, for me personally helps me to focus both my content and the guest who I have on my podcast.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:13:49] Sure.

Heidi Kirby: [00:13:50] To give you an example, some of the different archetypes are like the creator, the sage, the outlaw, the lover, the everyman, the caregiver. Just different archetypes like that. And my my learning and development podcast is very much the sage podcast. It’s very much the expert educational, you know, trying to teach people. But then there are podcasts like the Trader Joe’s podcast I mentioned that’s about that’s the everyman. It’s meant to build a connection, it’s meant to show just empathy. And we’re just like everyone else, right? And then there are things that are like the outlaw who’s like, we don’t care what people say, we’re risk takers, we’re disruptors, we’re revolutionary. And and so depending on the archetype that you choose, you can kind of guide the theme, the brand, the conversation of your podcast.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:14:45] That’s great. What a helpful tool to get started. What are some tips that you have for brands that are just beginning on that journey of creating a podcast?

Heidi Kirby: [00:14:54] The first one is to have a plan, to have an objective, to be clear on what it is exactly that you’re you’re trying to accomplish and to know your audience, to have the audience in mind when you go ahead and start creating, because everything is going to depend on who your audience is, but also realize that you can do a podcast on any budget. So it’s one of those things like buying a car or buying clothing where you can really spend as little or as much money as you want to or as you have. And so with the right recording equipment, the right hosting platform, you can really get started in no time as long as you have that plan. One of the things that is a very specific tip that I have when you first launch your podcast, you shouldn’t launch just one episode, but you should launch two or three episodes so that with the feeds and the platforms where your podcast is going out, you’re going to have like a spike in listenership because you’re going to have more than one episode for people to consume. And it’ll give you like this nice spike of activity right at the start of your podcast. And supposedly, depending on your topic, it can help you get on those top podcast lists on some of like the Apple and Google platforms.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:16:21] Right.

Heidi Kirby: [00:16:22] Just because you’re releasing more than one episode at once.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:16:26] Mm hmm. What are some mistakes that you’ve seen?

Heidi Kirby: [00:16:29] Not having a common theme. So back to the branding conversation. Right? Not having a specific theme in mind. So I’ve seen it work, but it’s only worked for like celebrity podcasts.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:16:45] If you already have… yeah.

Heidi Kirby: [00:16:47] Yeah, yeah. Like, your brand is you, so you can go talk about whatever you want. But if that’s not the case, you definitely need to have some sort of common thread because again, it’s, it’s knowing your audience and knowing what they want to listen to. And if you’re all over the place and if you’re jumping around from episode to episode and just letting people talk about whatever. I’ve listened to podcasts where they go off topic and they go off topic for a long time and it’s awkward and it’s like, What does this have to do with the reason I’m listening to this podcast, right? And then also just poor quality. Audio quality is pretty easy to do in a decent way. Nowadays we just have a lot more technology, especially post-COVID, than we used to. So the other thing is like bad volume, right? Like the music of your podcast is super loud and then you can barely hear the people talking or what I consider like the cardinal sin of podcasting, which is using your laptop’s microphone so quality. And then just like all over the place are, are the two biggest areas where I’ve seen podcasts kind of fail.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:17:59] Is there any other advice that you’d like to leave our audience with about podcasting in their podcasting journey?

Heidi Kirby: [00:18:06] Just do it!

Rochelle Reiter: [00:18:08] I love it.

Heidi Kirby: [00:18:09] That’s the biggest thing is people tell me all the time, Oh, I’ve always wanted to start a podcast, or I’ve always thought about starting a podcast and I’m like, Just do it. Just go ahead and do it. And that’s that’s kind of what I did. I was just like, All right, well, I got the okay to do this, so I better figure it out. And it took me maybe a week’s worth of planning before I started recording and I’ve just it’s been almost two years now and I’ve just kept doing it and it’s it really is that easy.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:18:39] That’s encouragement for all of our listeners.

Heidi Kirby: [00:18:41] Yeah, absolutely!

Rochelle Reiter: [00:18:43] Thank you so much for joining us today. Great insight on podcasting and I’m hoping that we inspired some of our listeners to start their own.

Heidi Kirby: [00:18:51] Thanks. Me too. I hope so.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:18:57] Thank you for listening to The 19: Entrepreneur Edition with learning and Development expert Heidi Kirby. To learn more about Heidi’s podcast and services, visit HeidiKirby.com. If you have additional thoughts on the topics we discussed today, send us an email. You can send questions, comments and more to R-R-E-I-T-E-R at Orange Label Advertising dot com. A special thank you goes out to our contributors Studio Manager Kelsey Phillips, Micah Panzich, who edits our show, and Ashley Ruiz, Senior Content Writer. Be sure to subscribe to The 19 on Apple Podcasts, Google Play and Spotify and if you like what you heard today, leave us a review!

The post The 19: Entrepreneur Edition with Heidi Kirby appeared first on Orange Label.

Ashley Ruiz: [00:00:00] This is The 19 a podcast that delivers marketing insights from Orange Label in 19 minutes or less. This year, the agency is celebrating 50 years of working with established brands that are driven by a fearless entrepreneurial mindset. What does this mean for you? It means enriched conversations and stories with marketing and leadership experts aimed at improving lives.

Ashley Ruiz: [00:00:28] Hello and welcome to The 19: Entrepreneur Edition! I’m Ashley Ruiz, Senior Content Writer at Orange Label. I’m the one who writes Orange Labels monthly blog covering a range of marketing topics. In our April blog, we shared five key takeaways from the biannual CMO Survey. One interesting finding from the survey is that 75% of marketers plan to increase and focus on first-party data. This is a big change as marketers have generally relied on first, second and third party data equally in the past. For many, this means adapting to a new way of gathering information. At Orange Label. It’s confirmation that the agency’s View From the Field a method of gathering primary research, is as valuable and necessary as ever. Today, I’ll be interviewing Orange Label President Rochelle Reiter to tell you all about this process. She’s our usual host of the 19 podcast, and today she’s on the other side of the mic. Now I get to say her usual line: Rochelle, welcome to The 19!

Rochelle Reiter: [00:01:23] Thank you so much, Ashley! It’s so great to have you on the other side of the mic and hosting me.

Ashley Ruiz: [00:01:28] Excited to be here. Rochelle, were you surprised to see a growing emphasis on first party data reported in the CMO survey?

Rochelle Reiter: [00:01:39] Well, we really saw it coming over all of the restrictions that have been put in place about collecting data over the past few years. So the good news for Orange Label is that we’ve been collecting first party data with our clients for many, many years.

Ashley Ruiz: [00:01:52] Okay. How long would you say that Orange Label has been conducting this first party data research?

Rochelle Reiter: [00:01:58] Well, our agency was really founded with a research philosophy, so asking questions of our clients, customers and prospects has always really been part of our DNA. One example of this in action is our testimonial radio commercials, where we produced for some of our clients across the country. And we actually visit our clients, customers in their own business environment and conduct one on one interviews with them. So the nuggets and sound bites that come out of these interviews are to create messages that authentically and emotionally connect with the audience. In addition, we use that messaging from the interviews in other forms of marketing, such as digital ads in websites and more traditional pieces like brochure and outdoor advertising. And then about ten years ago, we formalized our interview process and named it a View From the Field. So this method is a little bit different in that we conduct interviews, how we conduct them for the radio commercials, but it has the same end goal in mind, and it’s really to gather authentic and emotional responses from the marketplace so that we can develop messaging that resonates and actually elicits a response. So really connecting with that audience in the marketplace.

Ashley Ruiz: [00:03:07] That’s awesome. The evolution from the radio commercials to this View From the Field. So when we do these view From the Field interviews, who is interviewed? Is it always brand advocate?

Rochelle Reiter: [00:03:16] So it really depends on the client. So for retail clients, it’s typically current customers or clients of theirs. And then we also like to interview past customers so we can learn a lot from people that have been a customer and then for whatever reason, aren’t a customer anymore. So we can figure out why they left. What were the specific reasons? And really dig into that and the research behind that in health care in that industry, it’s typically patients, although we need to take caution in these instances because of HIPAA regulations, it can also be key staff members or even other types of stakeholders, such as board members or physicians when it comes to health care.

Ashley Ruiz: [00:03:53] Okay. So in the instance of people who might not be customers anymore, how can they feel safe sharing their full and honest feedback?

Rochelle Reiter: [00:04:02] So we’ve done that a couple of different ways. One will tell them that it’s anonymous and we won’t share with our client who that person was. But a lot of times I think people are willing to share their past experience if it wasn’t good and if they know that we’re intending to work on it or the brand is intending to work on that and make it better for others, it’s usually not a problem.

Ashley Ruiz: [00:04:25] Okay perfect. How are these interviews usually conducted?

Rochelle Reiter: [00:04:29] So interviews are typically conducted via telephone. In this way, it’s easier to capture the authentic tone that someone’s using. You know, in an email, if you read something on a piece of paper, you can’t gather the emotional insights that come from that. But when you’re on the phone with somebody, they’re able to share authentically. If you notice a pause in their reaction, or if you notice they’re wanting to share more, you can ask follow up questions. So we’ve found that phone interviews are very efficient, and it’s a way that we can actually hear emotion from our client’s customers. So the way that it works is our clients typically provide us with a list of names to call, and it always works if they give their clients a heads up or their customers a heads up that we’re going to call. So they don’t think we’re like some just some random person trying to gather market research. It’s actually a connection that’s made there. And we structure the interviews to last about 20 minutes, being sensitive to the person on the other end of the phone and their time. But we find that some people will spend 45 minutes with us sharing because sometimes people just love to share. So we are sensitive to the time, but also will spend any time that’s needed with this customer to get all the nuggets of insight that they have to offer.

Ashley Ruiz: [00:05:46] Okay. What type of questions do we usually ask in these interviews?

Rochelle Reiter: [00:05:51] So some questions are very straightforward about media habits and preferences of, you know, where do you get your information from or where do you shop? But other questions are all around benefits and experience. So we ask a lot about benefits, and then we ask about the experience of the brand, how they heard about them. And then we always ask what’s one thing that could be better? So although we might not include this in messaging, at the end of the day, it’s useful insight for our customers, our brands that they don’t naturally get from people. And I think since a third party, we’re doing that research for them. They’re able to. Share more authentically when we’re on the phone with them.

Ashley Ruiz: [00:06:35] Okay. Yeah, I know in my experience having some of that feedback and listening to those interviews has helped me tremendously in writing the copy, definitely.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:06:43] Yeah. Yeah and that’s you make a good point. It’s really important that we have other people sometimes sit in in those interviews on our team so that whether it’s a copywriter or a designer, so that they’re really capturing that emotional feel that that they can gain from direct experience from that customer.

Ashley Ruiz: [00:07:03] Yeah, definitely. How do people typically respond when you ask to interview them?

Rochelle Reiter: [00:07:08] So this also really depends on the client. Sometimes people are very willing and then other times they’re very hard to wrangle. So it depends on schedules. Like if we’re interviewing a lawyer, for example, we have to get ahead of their schedule in advance. And so and also if we’re interviewing an entrepreneur, we know that they’re very, very busy or they may want to talk at 7 a.m. or 6 o’clock at night, and we just have to be willing to adjust our schedules. On a few occasions. We’ve had to offer incentives for the interviewees, so we’ve done gift cards and things like that. In other instances where clients are in one place, for some B2B clients, we’ve actually done the interviews at trade shows. And then so for some retail clients, we’ve actually gone to their locations for their business where customers are coming in and out the front door and we’re able to ask the questions there.

Ashley Ruiz: [00:08:02] Okay. Do you think that people appreciate this interview process that brands are going out of their way to to do this and to speak to them?

Rochelle Reiter: [00:08:11] Yeah, and I think that it helps. As I said earlier, when the clients are giving them a heads up and they say, oh, we’re, we’re doing some market research to enhance the experience of our brand, they find that we find that many people are willing and able to do that and they think it’s a positive thing that they’re investing the time.

Ashley Ruiz: [00:08:33] Yeah, I know that. I would feel pretty neat if I knew that I contributed to a brand and where it’s at today.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:08:39] Sure.

Ashley Ruiz: [00:08:40] As far as the interviews go, once they’re complete, how is that information used exactly?

Rochelle Reiter: [00:08:44] So first they’re collected and then analyzed for trends and common themes. So we have a process for this that we do internally that results in a lot of data collection, but then disseminating that data into easy to read charts so that the client can understand it. The key insights are usually used for audience targeting as well as media vehicle selection, and then they’re incorporated into their brand messaging and the campaign themes that we’re running. So a lot of that brand messaging will be used in websites, but then some more specific messaging will be used in promotions or campaigns that they’re doing that are more short term.

Ashley Ruiz: [00:09:19] Okay, that’s exciting. Can you think of an “aha” moment that came from a View from the Field interview?

Rochelle Reiter: [00:09:25] Yeah. So we always have ah-ha moments during the interviews. It’s one of my most favorite things that we do here. What’s really fun is when our creative deliverables actually change as a result of the insights that we learned. So an example of this would be one time when we were conducting interviews for a client in the pet industry where we actually did the interviews at their different locations. We actually ended up uncovering very distinct brand values for them, and so they had a list of brand values that were or were stated, but they ended up being slightly different. So some of them were very, very similar. And then others we uncovered those nuggets. So then in addition to using them as their brand values, we developed campaigns, monthly themes around those brand values. And the result in the marketplace was, was really astonishing. It was it was very powerful. Another time we were able to clearly identify the real patient journey. And this was a little bit different than what the client actually thought. So by talking directly to the patients, we were able to see the steps and the flow of the process that they went through in their marketing funnel. And then the client was able to use that as an organizing principle for all their marketing tools.

Ashley Ruiz: [00:10:35] Okay. Yeah, it makes me think of that quote like saying that, you know, this is the way we’ve always done it. So, when you take a step back, you realize…

Rochelle Reiter: [00:10:42] Absolutely!

Ashley Ruiz: [00:10:43] Yeah!

Rochelle Reiter: [00:10:43] Usually it’s people. You can’t see what you’re so close to. So why we do what we do with the View From the Field, we first do our orange exploration where we’re talking directly to the clients and their internal team. But the second step is the View From the Field where we’re talking to the people in their field. So it’s actually people that are experiencing the brand real time and they’re outside. So they’re outside the four walls of our client’s business. So between the internal feedback and the external feedback, we’re able to develop really powerful messaging and strategies for them that actually work and produce a great ROI.

Ashley Ruiz: [00:11:21] Yeah. Have you noticed a difference between the clients that go with the View From the Field and go through that process with Orange Label and those that don’t?

Rochelle Reiter: [00:11:30] Yeah, it’s typically clients that want to invest. Best in a long term brand strategy. They’ll have us conduct the interviews. We do have clients that don’t choose to do it. It’s usually either for a financial reason or they want something really quick. It does take some time, so it takes about three weeks from start to finish for the interview process alone. And then we have the creative time to develop that. But the end result is worth it because a lot of times when people don’t go through that process, they end up wanting to do it six months down the road. So it’s better for us to start with it on an engagement than to do it like halfway through the relationship. It’s invaluable data that you can gather for them and and incorporates a much deeper message and all of their marketing materials that actually resonates with the audience.

Ashley Ruiz: [00:12:16] Okay. I would imagine that it’s not really a one-and-done type of situation, right? Are there ever clients that go through the View From the Field again?

Rochelle Reiter: [00:12:24] Yeah. So we recommend it probably every 12 to 18 months like that’s a good rule of thumb and especially if there’s been a lot of changes in the marketplace or if there’s been a new product introduction or if things like COVID hit, you know, it’s good to get a pulse on that more often. But in between doing the interviews, you can also gather data from social media metrics and insights, or sending out an actual survey. In between the time when you can actually do a View From the Field.

Ashley Ruiz: [00:12:53] What would you say is the most valuable insight that brands typically gain in the View From the Field?

Rochelle Reiter: [00:12:58] It’s really gaining a deeper understanding of their target audience that is so, so valuable. As we talked earlier, it’s like sometimes clients are so close to their brand that they don’t see these nuggets. So it’s just this deeper understanding that they can weave in to all of their marketing pieces and their direct interactions and creating that better customer experience for the audience. So in addition, what that does is it helps their marketing dollars work more efficiently so that they can make a larger impact.

Ashley Ruiz: [00:13:30] Well, Rachelle, thank you so much for letting me interview you for this podcast on The 19th!

Rochelle Reiter: [00:13:35] You’re welcome. It was super fun!

Ashley Ruiz: [00:13:43] Thank you for listening to The 19: Entrepreneur Edition with Orange Label President Rochelle Reiter. To learn more about the Orange Label approach and View From the Field, visit Orangelabeladvertising.com/capabilities. If you have additional thoughts on the rise in first party data or the View From the Field, send us an email. You can send questions, comments and more to rreiter. That’s R-R-E-I-T-E-R at orange label advertising dot com.

Ashley Ruiz: [00:14:12] A special thank you goes out to our contributors Controller Ryan Nagel and Michael Pazich, who edits our show. Be sure to subscribe to The 19 on Apple Podcasts, Google Play and Spotify. And if you like what you heard today, leave us a review!

The post The 19: Entrepreneur Edition with Rochelle Reiter appeared first on Orange Label.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:00:00] This is The 19 a podcast that delivers marketing insights from Orange Label in 19 minutes or less. This year, the agency is celebrating 50 years of working with established brands that are driven by a fearless entrepreneurial mindset. What does this mean for you? It means enriched conversations and stories with marketing and leadership experts aimed at improving lives.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:00:28] Hello and welcome to The 19: Entrepreneur Edition! I’m Rochelle Reiter, President of Orange Label. Today, we’re talking about something that every entrepreneur can benefit from, and that’s learning more about intellectual property rights. The World Trade Organization defines intellectual property as “the rights given to persons over the creation of their minds.” Understanding intellectual property is a key part of being able to protect your brand and its exclusive identity. Here to share more about intellectual property from copyright and trademark protection to copyright infringement is attorney Andy Nelson. With decades of experience representing clients in business, commercial and intellectual property matters, and his clients have ranged from the food and beverage industries to advertising, technology, apparel and more. Andy, welcome to The 19. We’re so excited to have you here today.

Andrew Nelson: [00:01:18] Oh, thanks Rochelle. I’m excited to be here!

Rochelle Reiter: [00:01:24] So tell us about your background as an attorney and your specialty.

Andrew Nelson: [00:01:29] Okay. Well, I’ve been doing this 20 years now. I started out up in the Bay Area, Silicon Valley, I guess, to be accurate. I came down here in 2003 and I’ve been practicing in Orange County ever since. I guess I’d put it in two categories what I’ve been doing my entire career one dispute resolution and avoidance for businesses. So that is garden variety problems that crop up to full fledged raging lawsuits, anything in between. I do help businesses try to avoid narrow and and resolve their little dust ups that that occur. And then on the other part of what I do, which kind of emerged out of my dispute resolution in the intellectual property arena, is developing a transactional counseling prosecution, if you will, intellectual property practice. And that I’ve built up over the last number of years. So I love getting in there and helping businesses understand what they have in terms of intellectual property, putting boundaries around it, identifying it and helping them exploit it and then helping them enforce it.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:02:27] Why is protecting intellectual property so important for brands?

Andrew Nelson: [00:02:32] Simply put, it’s it’s an asset so much like, you know, a business’s personal property. It’s, you know, it’s desks and inventory and things like that. And it’s real estate, which may be actual real estate holdings. It may be a leasehold, whatever it is. People understand those assets, these more intangible things. They’re treated like property in the law. But a lot of folks don’t understand that it’s treated like property. And the thing is, I think just about any business is going to have something, some kind of intellectual property that’s an asset for its brand. And, you know, the gates are kind of left open a lot. And in some cases, it may not be the most important asset for business, but it is a valuable asset that’s, you know, when you go to exit or otherwise depart your business, it’s part of that value. Sure. And for some businesses, it will be the most valuable asset. I mean, if you think about the most what you consider the most valuable businesses or companies on the planet, their value is largely driven by their IP. Yeah. Not the other stuff. Not the real estate and not the personal property.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:03:30] Sure. It’s interesting that many brands don’t get that.

Andrew Nelson: [00:03:32] Yeah. And it’s it’s just not intuitive.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:03:35] Right.

Andrew Nelson: [00:03:35] You know, I mean, I think we all grew up thinking, you know, you see something physical and you can say that’s mine. You know, understand holding it or taking possession of it as ownership and you know, how to keep other people away from it and kind of maintain your ownership. But these intangibles, it’s just it’s just not intuitive you have to learn it.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:03:51] What do you find that most businesses don’t understand about intellectual property rights?

Andrew Nelson: [00:03:58] The rights themselves. Simply enough. I think most people I mean, I kind of alluded to it a moment ago. I think a lot of people I mean, I’ve seen over the years, people kind of get this idea that if they think of something or develop something, they have a sense of ownership. As in it’s mine, but they don’t they don’t understand really the contours of of what the law kind of lays down for different types of intangibles. Some things just aren’t protectable.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:04:25] Yeah.

Andrew Nelson: [00:04:26] And they’re just in the public domain, even though you may have this innate claim to ownership over it.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:04:31] Like, that’s my idea!

Andrew Nelson: [00:04:32] It’s mine. That’s mine. I thought that up 50 years ago. No one can use it right now. Well, it’s not that simple. So it’s really constructed. I mean, I guess even real estate law and personal property law that’s constructed as well. But these are more recent in the grand scheme of things. And so just not understanding what I see over and over again is just not understanding the different types of law, different columns that exist or buckets, if you will, and how different things that people conjure up either get placed in one bucket over another, which comes with its own rights obligations, and when somethings go in the public domain or there’s no way to protect this bucket.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:05:06] Sure, sure. So at what stage do most of your clients come to you? In other words, is it a proactive approach or is it oh I’ve got a problem?

Andrew Nelson: [00:05:16] Certainly, it’s a mixed bag. I will say this on the dispute resolution side I talked about earlier, it’s often reactive.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:05:22] Yeah.

Andrew Nelson: [00:05:22] You know, it’s it’s often either they’ve, you know, received a salvo or they’ve already launched their own salvo. And then they think, okay, I need to get you involved. And things are already on the rails in some fashion. On the intellectual property side, I would say I think it’s a bit more proactive, although not entirely. But but I do enjoy that when people come to me at the very beginning before they’ve done something, launch missiles against somebody else or started using their IP because in some scenarios using your IP, exploiting it, trying to gain value from it may be great in the short term, but you may actually miss some crucial deadlines. This comes up most in the patent area, as in if you start publicly disclosing what your invention is, you start using it, selling it, maybe showing it off at trade shows. If you don’t apply for patent protection within a certain period of time and it’s typically one year from disclosing it, you can’t ever do it. It’s out in the open. All your IP is out there for everybody else to use.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:06:17] Yeah. So what do you recommend as effective strategies for trademark and copyright protection for brands?

Andrew Nelson: [00:06:25] Okay. So those are two different things when it comes to trademarks. Specifically, two things are huge. One, clearing it, making sure that what you want to kind of adopt as a brand identifier for you or multiple identifiers, maybe a name and maybe a logo as well, maybe a slogan. On top of that, you want to make sure that no one else is in your space using something similar or the same for a similar industry, similar goods, something along those lines. There’s some other considerations, but those are the two big ones. You want to make sure that no one else is there, you know, and you decide to adopt something. And next thing you know, you’re getting a cease and desist letter after you’ve invested in your new brand identity. That’s no good. So clearing it is great. And similar to that with copyrights, that’s a different kind of intellectual property. What you want to make sure is that if you’re using somebody else’s, for example, you want to make sure you’re clearing it. And beyond that, you want to make sure if you’re creating something that you really think about what your source of inspiration was, because your source of inspiration may be somebody else’s property. And next thing you know, if yours is substantially similar to that other property, you might be committing copyright infringement.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:07:27] Okay.

Andrew Nelson: [00:07:28] So you really want to know where you’re getting something or if you’re in an organization where those who create for you are getting their inspiration. Those are two big ones. And that’s at the very beginning, you know, clearing. And then beyond that, of course, there’s additional strategies to protect your own property. But first thing is clear it. Make sure you’re free to operate.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:07:45] Mm hmm. And do you do that upfront work for your clients?

Andrew Nelson: [00:07:49] Yeah, we do. We do that and also help. I mean, a lot of people can do a lot of this on their own. So we like to help people, you know, keep their attorney bills down. The more work that they’re capable of doing and want to do, we encourage that. But we’re a good backstop. And sometimes people have their business to run. They don’t want to you know, they don’t want to do that. So we can certainly help out with that.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:08:07] Okay, great. What recommendations do you have for brands when it comes to using photography, music and different things like that that they’re combining for a particular marketing asset?

Andrew Nelson: [00:08:20] Yeah, this is a danger area for sure, and this is a subject of a lot of calls and emails I get over time. You know, using photos on websites or sinking music with you name it, you know, the video would have you.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:08:33] Sure.

Andrew Nelson: [00:08:33] The dangers are you’re talking about most likely using someone else’s property or someone else’s creation. And if you are if you’re not in control, if you didn’t create the content yourself, you got to really know where it comes from. You know, you may be using other’s content, but it may be extremely old. Maybe that’s in the public domain if it’s that old and I mean old, old, old. And, you know, it should have ragtime music attached or something that old. But if it doesn’t, you really want to know where it comes from. Copyright infringement in particular can be particularly onerous. And these are kind of strict liability type regimes, so to speak. So, you know, the I didn’t know kind of excuse might help a little bit, but it’s generally not going to help on liability. So when you’re using other’s content, you want to trace it, make sure you know where it’s coming from, and then if it in fact is someone else is do your due diligence to make sure that it’s one free to use as maybe it’s in the public domain for any number of other reasons. Maybe it’s super old, or if you’re using it, it comes from somebody else. Ensure that they’ve got the rights to then give to you.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:09:29] Sure.

Andrew Nelson: [00:09:29] Which may be kind of tracking the right agreements along the way to make sure they have a license to use, or if they’re the original creator entering into your own, you know, right to use your own license or otherwise get permission to use it. So just have that peace of mind that you’re just not going to be surprised by something you don’t want to be surprised by.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:09:45] Sure, sure.

Andrew Nelson: [00:09:46] But when music yeah. Music and photography especially, those are so easy to snap up. And the myth I hear over and over again is it was on the web, so I thought it was free to use, you know, that kind of thing.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:09:56] And that doesn’t hold up, right?

Andrew Nelson: [00:09:57] It does not hold up. No. You might get lucky once in a while, but more often than not, no. You’re going to get some kind of communication.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:10:05] So with the rise of social media, what are the legalities surrounding audio clips like on TikTok and Reels for Instagram?

Andrew Nelson: [00:10:14] This is, I think evolving all the time. But and if my info is out of date, I don’t think it is. Somebody can chime in when it comes to TikTok and Instagram. They have their own licenses already built in. They’re already in place with a lot of artists or publishers out there. So if you create, you know, a TikTok video or with Instagram, I got to get this right here, not a post, not IGTV, but a story or a real you’ll have the music option available. Those licenses are already grabbed up by Instagram and TikTok. So if you use or incorporate that music, you should be good to go.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:10:48] Okay? Yeah.

Andrew Nelson: [00:10:49] Using your own would be okay. Grabbing music and using an outside app to integrate it if you have the permissions could be okay, but you might get pulled if you want to use music that’s not in those in-app libraries, you’re going to have to negotiate.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:11:01] So it sounds like it’s good to go as long as it’s already in the library that’s on TikTok or Instagram?

Andrew Nelson: [00:11:07] Should be for, yeah, for those particular uses. Yes.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:11:09] Great! What are the legal implications of using images for memes in your brand posts for social, do you know?

Andrew Nelson: [00:11:16] Yeah. Another another mixed bag. A little complicated. When you talk about using memes, you’re talking about using someone else’s visual content, someone’s visual art or audio visual, I guess photography or what have you video, someone else’s content. And this is where you probably hear a lot of people say, Oh, I’m just I’m making something cute or funny and it’s fair use for me to do. So that’s a brush that gets kind of used quite a bit and maybe inaccurately. You talk about using someone else’s content. Yes, you may be able to use that content without permission and protect yourself or I guess, or tuck yourself under this claim of fair use. But that can be a bit dangerous, fair use. There’s a lot of considerations that go into it. There’s no easy check the box, check this box, check that box. And I’m in a safe harbor.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:11:57] Yeah.

Andrew Nelson: [00:11:58] It’s hard to figure out. So I think the most frequently used label, if you will, that might tuck someone under fair use would be to create parody or commentary. And memes often do that. Yeah. Names are sometimes they’re just funny and satire. They’re not necessarily commenting on the image itself or the audio or potentially even a trademark. You know, when you have a, like the Polo logo and you have like the rider being bucked off or something like that, that makes fun of the logo itself. That’s probably and I’m saying this, you know, with big finger quotes around, that’s probably fair use because it makes fun of the mark itself. It’s just not using that mark in some other fashion that doesn’t make fun of it or, you know, that’s on the trademark side. But other imagery, it’s unclear. Now, I will say this, there’s probably a lot of copyright infringement, a lot of trademark infringement going on with memes all the time. A lot of brands or creators of the content just don’t care.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:12:48] Yeah.

Andrew Nelson: [00:12:49] You know, sometimes they do take ownership over their their properties, but sometimes it’s, you know, this doesn’t reflect poorly upon me. It doesn’t hurt my business, it brings attention to me. And so I’m not going to do anything about it, even though they might. So it’s a bit of a dangerous game using these memes, but it’s hard to give anyone any. Here’s your one step and you’re free and clear.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:13:08] Yeah, clear cut answers.

Andrew Nelson: [00:13:09] It’s hard to do that. But I will say if you see a lot of folks using the same meme over and over again, even in a commercial sense, you could probably draw some conclusions about the intentions of the owner of that property, whether they are enforcing it. If you haven’t heard stories about other people being receiving the cease and desist letters, that kind of thing, that might indicate something. But that’s not great legal advice.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:13:29] Right?!

Andrew Nelson: [00:13:29] I mean, that’s it’s a risk assessment.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:13:31] Yeah. Are you seeing more cases involving social media or now that social media is just pretty much mainstream? There’s is there not much?

Andrew Nelson: [00:13:40] I’m sure there is a lot, but I don’t track every district court across the country.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:13:43] Right, right.

Andrew Nelson: [00:13:44] But I don’t see a lot. I mean, you know, a lot of these things would tend to make the news when they occur. There was one in the last few years that involved user generated content. You know, someone posting all their own content on, say, I think it was Instagram in particular. And then that content got used by a third party or sponsor or somebody else affiliated with Instagram. And of course, that author was not happy about that. But if you look at the terms of use, Instagram’s terms of use at the time, by having a public account like that, you are agreeing to anything you post could be used. I don’t say by anybody. It’s a little tighter than that, but it could be used by others in many ways. And you were giving permission.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:14:20] Yes. By posting it, right. Yeah. I think you just covered the next question, which was legal issues with reposting public content. So do you have anything to expand on there?

Andrew Nelson: [00:14:30] Sure. Sure. If you are a user of a platform, you know, some social media platform, the terms and conditions or terms of use are there for you to find. Go look for them or you don’t have to go on the platform. If you just go on your search engine and terms of use for Facebook or Instagram, you should get taken to those terms of use. However, make sure that you’re in the right country. Some will say this is for Ireland or whatever and that could change. Make sure it’s where you are and then understand you’ll understand your rights and obligations regarding your own content that you create, which also give you insight into others content. Because if you’re using others content, it’s maybe their property. So if they’re writing something, posting something that technically could have copyright protection, but they create that. But by posting it on, say, Instagram, stick with Instagram for the moment, they may very well be agreeing that others may use their content for certain purposes. And frankly, you know, this is one where I don’t hear, you know, a lot of complaints and gripes going around. Now if somebody posts, you know, a major piece of work that’s kind of their business, you know, their novel or their serial novel or what have you or their music over and over again. They’re probably not going to take kindly to others. Reposting it wholesale may or may not. If they’re getting promoted, they may like that. But if someone’s using it to then promote some other commercial venture or what have you, that owner may not like that. Now that may be okay depending on the terms of use of the platform. We want to look at those. But even if it’s okay, you know, do you want to get slammed on social media for doing that, for maybe not doing the moral thing or.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:15:57] Yeah, is it…

Andrew Nelson: [00:15:58] Being accused of you know, the immoral thing, that sort of thing. There is a lot to watch out for too.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:16:02] For sure. For sure. If there was one strategy you would want to recommend to businesses to protect themselves and their brand, what would it be?

Andrew Nelson: [00:16:10] In order to be able to put fences around it? To enforce it, you have to know what you have. So my big strategy is educate yourself, learn what you think you might own or you might have. It’s kind of an audit, like a self audit, self inventory. What do I have? What do I think is my property? What do I think of, you know, if I create it in terms of audio, visual content, brand identifiers, you know, my slogans, my color combinations, what have you do? I have inventions. Do I have secret sources? You know, that might.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:16:36] Yeah.

Andrew Nelson: [00:16:36] Protectable trade secrets. What do I have? Let me try to really define these. Let me write them out. And then you can kind of figure out, okay, well, this is best protected. This is probably a trademark law that, you know, that shrouds this. This is probably copyright law. If anything, here’s my invention. If anything, if it’s information based, maybe it could be a trade secret. Maybe it’s a patent. If it’s a physical device, probably only going to be a patent. If anything, once I really know what I have, then I can ask the right questions about protecting it, whether I have a real fence around it, and then I can figure out what are my ways to strengthen it and enforce it. But all these other things enforcing it, I mean, I see these sorts of, you know, flying emails all over the place or letters cease and desist letters where people don’t have any rights at all.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:17:15] Right.

Andrew Nelson: [00:17:16] I’m dealing with one of those right now. Someone is you know, someone has what we call an intent to use trademark application and someone else is using what this other person’s hoping to adopt at some point in time is using it now. But the person who’s complaining is saying, I have a trademark. Well, they don’t and they don’t have a reservation. And they it may mature in one, but it could very well be that they’d never put it into use. And if they never put it into use, then there’s not going to be a trademark there at some point. So this is where I see people slinging letters and season assists, you know, this kind of area of law without really knowing what their rights are and their obligations. And this boomerangs a lot, sometimes probably the trademark arena the most, where you see letters or emails, you know, Facebook messenger or whatever. Someone says, you can’t you know, you can’t use this, you can’t do that. And come to find out, well, I’m glad you sent this to me, because I’ve been using this ten years longer than you, and thanks for making me aware of it, you know?

Rochelle Reiter: [00:18:06] Right.

Andrew Nelson: [00:18:06] And so it goes back the other direction. So that happens a lot, probably more so there than anywhere else.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:18:12] Yeah. Well, it’s definitely something for brands to consider. And I really appreciate you sharing your insights and thoughts on the topic. Thank you so much for being with us today.

Andrew Nelson: [00:18:23] Thanks, Rochelle! I enjoyed it.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:18:30] Thank you for listening to The 19: Entrepreneur Edition with attorney Andy Nelson. To learn more about Andy’s services and how he helps businesses protect their brands, visit fortislaw.com/attorney or join his private Facebook group at Facebook.com slash groups slash Defending Your Brand. If you have additional thoughts on the topics we discussed today, send us an email. You can send questions, comments and more to info@orangelabeladvertising.com.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:19:00] A special thank you goes out to our contributors Senior Studio Manager Kelsey Phillips, Micah Panzich, who edits our show, and Ashley Ruiz, Senior Content Writer. Be sure to subscribe to The 19 on Apple Podcasts, Google Play and Spotify, and if you like what you heard today, leave us a review!

The post The 19: Entrepreneur Edition with Andrew Nelson appeared first on Orange Label.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:00:00] This is The 19, a podcast that delivers marketing insights from Orange Label in 19 minutes or less. This year, the agency is celebrating 50 years of working with established brands that are driven by a fearless entrepreneurial mindset. What does this mean for you? It means enriched conversations and stories with marketing and leadership experts aimed at improving lives.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:00:30] Hello and welcome to the 19 entrepreneur edition, I’m Rochelle Reiter, president of Orange Label. The Super Bowl is quickly approaching and no matter how you feel about the teams that are playing, there’s something else about the game that captures audiences attention year after year. The ads, of course! With about 40 minutes of commercials that occur throughout the Super Bowl, the ones that tend to be the most memorable are the ones that focus on story. Whether emotional like Google’s Loretta or funny like Old Spice’s “I’m on a horse,” these 30-second ads stand out because they appeal to our emotions. Here to share more about what makes stories such a powerful business tool is storytelling expert Michael Ashley. Michael’s experience spans from being a playwright and Disney screenwriter to a four time best selling author and branding consultant. Michael, welcome to The 19!

Michael Ashley: [00:01:19] Thank you for having me.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:01:25] So glad you were able to join us today! Can you first start by telling us about your background in storytelling?

Michael Ashley: [00:01:31] Yeah, absolutely. So I guess my background began professionally when I was in college. I was a playwright at the University of Missouri, and after I graduated from the university, I worked. I had my own company for a couple of years, and then I transferred to Chapman, where I got a master’s degree in screenwriting. And while I was still in school, I had a movie optioned, and as soon as I graduated, I began working for Creative Artists Agency, the top talent agency in the world, and my job was to read screenplays for directors and for screenwriters. And around the same time, I got accepted into a special program at Disney. I was one of six screenwriters that got to work with Gary Marsh, the President at the time. They were looking for their next big movie idea. And at the end of the week, they bought one treatment, which was for the treatment I wrote called Girl vs. Monster. It became a very successful movie for Disney starring Olivia Holt. It launched a kid’s clothing line and more importantly, more importantly, it got me an agent, and I was able to quit my day job and to focus on storytelling full time as a writer.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:02:38] That’s so amazing! What an adventure! And I do know the movie. My daughters watched it and I watched it too! How exciting. So let’s switch over to the business side of it and why storytelling is such a powerful tool in business.

Michael Ashley: [00:02:55] Absolutely. So I just gave a speech last week about this very topic. And so for one thing, storytelling is a way to communicate ideas. It’s no accident that we tell parables to children to help them make sense of the world. And if we want to convey something, especially something complex, storytelling is a great way to do it anyway. The presentation that I was giving last week was about the subject of pain, and it surprises people. But I say that’s really the secret weapon when it comes to Hollywood and storytelling, it’s pain, but maybe for not the reason people think, What I mean by that is, you need pain, you need conflict in a story to gather people’s attention to hook them in. And as a business owner, you want to tap into that. What are your clients or your prospects pain? What are their pain points? What are their problems? And if you can tell a story about how you successfully helped to reverse that problem. It’s a great way to show, not tell the value that you bring others.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:03:54] Right, right. Well, how can storytelling be used as a force for good in the world, improving lives and going beyond making money?

Michael Ashley: [00:04:04] Absolutely, well, I think right now, especially when it comes to technology, we have a glut of very dystopian bad stories. So I happen to write about technology for Forbes and for entrepreneur specifically around AI and big data. And I grew up loving science fiction and those kind of stories, but unfortunately, we tend to hear only bad negative stuff around technology. And that’s not to say that there aren’t scary things out there. I’m not suggesting that, but I think we need to begin telling more positive inspirational stories, especially in the technology realm. But really, in all realms of life, if you think about it, everything that we’ve ever created as a species or culture began with a thought. It began with an idea, and that idea became a story that we told. And so if we tell negative stories, what’s going to happen, we end up having negative outcomes. But I believe if we begin to tell more positive stories about what’s possible, we can also steer the conversations through the direction of our culture and really humanity by telling those better stories.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:05:11] Do you have some practical examples of those types of stories?

Michael Ashley: [00:05:15] Yeah, absolutely. So at the beginning of the pandemic, I wrote an article for Forbes about what if we were to tell a different story about COVID 19? And it’s been about almost, I guess, two years since I wrote that article. But what I try to do is, if you can imagine back at that time period, there were so I mean, even now, there’s so much fear and negativity around COVID. But instead, I try to create a story using the show and tell approach that I’m talking about how people were to seize this moment and use it to fix problems that happen in the past. For one thing, this unfortunately didn’t happen, but there are a lot of people right now that don’t have access to quality health care. And so this would be an opportunity for us to recognize that that’s an issue and to help people and to protect especially our most vulnerable people. So I would say that’s a good example of it. I think another one right now would be to tell a story about how AI and big data can be used to benefit people to get past the natural differences. Too much of us get hung up on and realize that we have more in common than what separates us. And so I see a place for positive science fiction.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:06:31] That’s amazing. So why do you think positive storytelling is so needed today, I mean, you talk about COVID and some of the negativity going on in the media. Why do you think it’s so needed?

Michael Ashley: [00:06:43] Well, I didn’t get into this much, but my background is also in media and journalism. And so at the same time, I was a playwright in college. I was also a newspaper reporter, and I’ve also been a columnist with other publications beyond Forbes and entrepreneur. And I know very well firsthand that their business model is built upon fear. And I think right now we’re living in an explosion of fear. There was another similar time like this in my lifetime, right after nine eleven, where it seemed like all the time we were being bombarded with stories about terrorism. And that’s pretty much disappeared from the conversation, for the most part. But now it’s been replaced with fears around health and medicine. And so I think that the other reason we need to tell better stories is we’ve got to help, especially our young people feel like there is a positive tomorrow for them. I happen to be reading an article yesterday. It’s called The Kids Are Not Alright and talking about this culture. And unfortunately, many young people who have witnessed so many important milestones in their lives from proms to graduation, they get canceled and they just live in this really difficult state of uncertainty that I, you know, you and I, I don’t think we can really appreciate because we’re not high school or an adolescent. And so I think it’s really important for us as responsible adults to paint these better visions for young people, especially to give them a sense of hope that the things will get better and that life is worth living.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:08:11] Yeah, I completely agree. So let’s talk a little bit more about storytelling and what makes up a strong story. What’s your opinion on that?

Michael Ashley: [00:08:21] Sure. No matter what kind of story it is, you want to begin with a good hook. If you go back to, let’s say, a novelist like total story back in the time period that he lived in, there wasn’t a lot of entertainment options like we have today. There is almost the whole catalog of any book you could ever imagine available on Amazon, right? You can go into any bookstore and you have access to so much great content. Likewise, there’s so much online. You know, you can go and tick tock, you can go on YouTube, you can access all these articles online as well. So you need to have something that’s going to draw us in. One technique that I recommend for storytelling would be in media spreads, which just means in the middle of the action. And so if you can put people in the middle of the action, just throw them into the story. That’s a really good way to hook people in. The next thing I would say goes back to what we talked about earlier. When it comes to pain, what you want to do is storytelling is you want to have a lot of conflict in your story. So if you think about your favorite movies or stories, I’ll just say Star Wars because it’s so universal right now. We have a character of Luke, and he begins an ordinary world and then conflict ensues. And so what happens is there is an external problem in the story. In his case, he has to fight the empire, but it could be anything, and that external problem forces an internal change. And if you think about it from a business perspective, it’s not until when a prospect or a customer has had enough problems and enough pain they’re willing to seek, perhaps your help. And so they’re willing to have an internal shift and internal change. And so what I would say is in storytelling, you want to dramatize the conflict, you want to play up the problem, whatever the challenge is and you want to make it as hard as possible as you can on your character. Because what really all of your characters, but especially your main character, so that people are pulled into that story. We want to see somebody that’s that’s struggling, that’s suffering, not because we’re sadists, but really because for whatever reason that we’re wired, we’re drawn to the stories of high conflict. And then of course, you want to pay it off eventually with a really good ending that provides closure.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:10:38] So relating that because the Star Wars example is perfect. If I was to relate it to business, how could business owners use storytelling to really grow their bottom line, grow their business and grow their impact?

Michael Ashley: [00:10:52] I think there are several different ways you can do it. The first is probably the easiest and the most informal would be getting better at elevator pitches. That’s also something I give presentations about how to say what you do in 30 seconds to a minute. You may have had the experience you were in a networking event or just meeting somebody and you ask them what they do and they go into this long discussion and you’re like, I don’t even know what you do. How can I refer new business? So I think it’s extremely helpful to be able to encapsulate what you do in a pithy yet powerful way if you can say it in 30 seconds to a minute. It’s a really good shorthand and then people know how to refer you or business. But I also think there’s another really helpful way you can do this, which is the case study. If you can demonstrate through story the value that you bring others. Not only can that be compelling to get captured people’s hearts and minds, but it allows people to remember you better. And they think to themselves, Well, I know that this person had this success with their client. Maybe I can refer them in this business. This goes back to the idea I mentioned earlier. Storytelling is really just a very effective technology to deliver information, and perhaps it’s one of the oldest technologies of all. But it is a really effective way to convey information, especially when we’re dealing with complex concepts. If we can whittle them down into a pithy story, then it’s very it’s a lot easier for people to connect with that story.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:12:18] Awesome. What are some resources or ways to get better at telling your story if you’re a business or a brand?

Michael Ashley: [00:12:26] And there are a lot of different ways, first, I’d say the easiest one is practice. I happen to have been in a networking group when I first started my company in 2015 and we would meet every week for breakfast. And so we would have to do an elevator pitch to each other. There’s about 40 to 50 people in the room. And so you couldn’t go past 30 seconds or they cut you off. And so I remember I lived about fifteen minutes from this destination and on my way there in my drive, I would just practice my elevator pitch over and over and over, and I would do different ones every week. And so I just got used to that rhythm, and I think that’s really important. When I teach people how to do this, I tell them that story. I say, look, it’s not as if this came naturally to me. I had to practice it a lot. The other thing I’d recommend is if I had to say one really good book about writing, would be On Writing by Stephen King. What I really liked that Stephen says, is that writers are storytellers shouldn’t wait necessarily for inspiration to strike. True professionals just get up and do it. And so it’s not going to be the case for everybody that you’re just going to be inspired and have that story whenever you want it instead. It’s a function of just getting out there and doing the hard work, and I think that’s how you grow as a storyteller.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:13:40] Awesome. If you had one piece of advice for marketers out there on on building a brand and telling their story, what would you say?

Michael Ashley: [00:13:50] The one thing I would say is try to be a value to somebody else. Try to make the conversation about them and not you. So Dale Carnegie has a really good book about this, How to Win Friends and Influence People. And it was a big impact on my life. And I think so much of our culture unfortunately tends to emphasize the idea of, you know, selfishness and making it all about us. But if we flip that and we think about ways that we can be of value to other people and make that our North Star, if you will, I think that things will come our way. I think that when you act in that way, certain synergies begin to appear different challenges in your life open up. And I think if you truly are thinking about other people, it’s really the best way to be successful, both in business and in life.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:14:35] Thank you so much, Michael, great insight today! We’re so happy to have you on The 19 and look forward to hearing more about storytelling from you in the future.

Michael Ashley: [00:14:45] Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:14:52] Thank you for listening to The 19: Entrepreneur Edition with storytelling expert Michael Ashley. To learn more about Michael’s services, visit MichaelAshleyPublishing.com. If you have additional thoughts on the topics we discuss today, send us an email. You can send questions, comments and more to info@Orangelabeladvertising.com.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:15:21] A special thank you goes out to our contributors, Senior Studio Manager Kelsey Phillips, Micah Panzich, who edits our show, and Ashley Ruiz, Senior Content Writer. Be sure to subscribe to The 19 on Apple Podcasts, Google Play and Spotify, and if you like what you heard today, leave us a review!

The post The 19: Entrepreneur Edition with Michael Ashley appeared first on Orange Label.

Rochelle Reiter : [00:00:06] This is The 19. In 19 minutes or less game changing insights from Orange Label, the leading response marketing agency for established brands that are driven by a fearless entrepreneurial mindset.

Wes Phillips: [00:00:24] Hello and welcome to The 19: Entrepreneur Edition. I’m Wes Philips, CEO of Orange Label. Can’t believe it’s already 2022, which means that our agency has been in business helping brand leaders thrive for 50 years! Today we have a very special edition of our podcast in honor of our 50th anniversary. We are talking to the agency’s founder, Paul Barth. Paul and I have worked together since 1983, and what began as a working relationship has grown into a real friendship. He has an exceptional understanding of interpersonal relationships and client communications, and the foundations he laid are still in the DNA of Orange Label to this day. I personally have learned so much from Paul over the years, and now we have the opportunity to benefit from his five decades of experience with brands and expertise in response marketing.

Wes Phillips: [00:01:23] Paul, thank you so much for joining us today!

Paul Barth: [00:01:25] Glad to be here!

Wes Phillips: [00:01:26] Now, one of the things that I’m most interested in when you started the agency back in 1972, it’s actually now become the longest standing, privately held response marketing agency in Orange County. I’m curious what inspired you to start the agency?

Paul Barth: [00:01:42] You know, my my motivations were not lofty. I didn’t come from a sophisticated environment. You may be looking for something more elegant, but the fact is my inspirations were were earthy, very pragmatic. I guess three words that could describe what I felt were freedom, fun and instinct. I relished the opportunity for freedom to move quickly, to change, to meet opportunities, to take risks. And that goes to the fun, to wake up in the morning with answers and ideas and then be able to act on those those ideas. Nothing is more fun than waking up with an idea or being in the gym and having an idea occur. That’s what the instinct it probably was handed down from my father, but I got to tell you a silly story. My first marketing success was way back in high school, and it was winning the high school student body race. My opponent for student body president was the captain of the football team. He was the quarterback and he was dating the head cheerleader. By the way, he was a straight-A student. There is no way I could possibly beat Kelly Burkeline to become student body president, so I thought, What am I going to do? So I went to the candidate for vice president, the one for a secretary and one for treasurer, and I said, Hey, you guys, let’s get together and let’s create a political party and with our own slogans as a party. And this will accomplish a couple of things, number one, that the teachers will be really impressed that we were so innovative and we came up with this idea. Secondly, because everyone was limited to how much advertising they could do. It’ll give us four times the amount of advertising. Well, of course, that gave that gave me four times the amount of advertising we won. I got to be student body president and that was my first experience with marketing. I still enjoy telling that story.

Wes Phillips: [00:03:41] Freedom, fun and instinct. So clearly, instinct paid off for you. And so with that, what was the focus at the start of the agency and then how did it evolve?

Paul Barth: [00:03:52] The focus was retail going after low hanging fruit to generate cash and gain a higher degree of maturity. We started with a chain of jewelry stores. They had something like, I don’t know, 12 locations, a large furniture retailer and automobile dealership. That retail continued to grow, but later added manufacturers, a significant paint manufacturer, you know, who delivered to other paint stores and who delivered to or whose market was primarily the contractor trade. But they decided to go after the retail trade later financial, including a bank and then office technology and so on.

Wes Phillips: [00:04:29] So your instinct told you, let’s start with retail and then you built off that. What’s so interesting is that today there are so many channels of communication. What communication principles do you believe have remained constant since you started in 1972, now through 2022?

Paul Barth: [00:04:46] You know, the channels, the way the messages are being delivered have changed, but the underlying principles driving the messages are very much the same today as they were back in 1972, when we started with going after the retail business. Number one, of course, the message has to be benefit rich, not simply recitation of product features. Even at the national level, watching national commercials on TV, for example, it’s still amazes me. Some are excellent with tremendously effective, benefit oriented advertising, and some are excellent the way they integrate the benefits with the features, but it still amazes me how many offer, like I said a moment ago, a recitation of features without the what’s in it for me, the old WIIFM. The other major issue, of course, is that the campaign has to be delivered with sufficient frequency and ongoing consistency that can’t be overstated. Delivering that message without hesitation and without taking breaks, it’s got to be written in stone that that campaign sort of never ends.

Wes Phillips: [00:06:07] You’re talking about frequency and consistency.

Paul Barth: [00:06:10] Yes.

Wes Phillips: [00:06:10] And the difference between frequency and consistency?

Paul Barth: [00:06:14] Frequency is reaching the target multiple times as often as budget will allow. Consistency is doing that over time. So well, does that make sense?

Wes Phillips: [00:06:27] Yeah, it makes sense. And the follow up question to that is that could have been done in 1972 with the different channels in 2022. Do you still believe frequency and consistency with the evolved channels still plays a key role?

Paul Barth: [00:06:42] Absolutely. The effective advertisers again, are there with tremendous frequency. I’ll use one as an example. Just because it had an effective ending, a company reached out to me with tremendous frequency. I got emails and text messages from them probably three times a week, and it was relentless, you know, for three consecutive months. But here’s what happened when I went to respond and buy some shoes. The website didn’t work. I wasn’t able to buy shoes from one of these emails, so they had me. They got me with frequency and they got me because they continued to be there week in, week out, month in, month out. Unfortunately, when I went to buy the shoes, I was unable to do so.

Wes Phillips: [00:07:30] That sounds like just an example when you get over to the sales side or the sales marketing side, underperformance.

Paul Barth: [00:07:37] Truly, truly underperformance as a marketer. It made me sad because they were doing so many things right and then to drop the ball at the very end. I don’t know why it made me feel bad, but it made me feel bad.

Wes Phillips: [00:07:52] Now, taking a different tact on your approach to marketing, one of the unique skills that I believe that you have is asking the right questions. Can you tell us a little bit about the process of finding the right questions to ask?

Paul Barth: [00:08:04] I called it looking for the pearl. Here’s where it began. I listened with intensity, almost putting myself in the mindset in the mind, in the frame of mind, of the other person. Getting there, getting in their heads, so to speak, and never interrupting, never interrupting because as they’re talking, you never know when the pearl of wisdom is going to drop on the table. If you’re listening carefully enough, you will hear little pearls of wisdom that are important to them or to the marketing or to the advertising. Now the second benefit of that kind of listening, that deeper kind of listening, not interrupting, staying in their minds is that it gives you a deeper, more intimate, more actionable frame of reference. And, by the way, more actionable follow up question. And that’s the trick. The great follow up questions that come out of the previous answer, the questions that again give you those pearls of wisdom and the reason how I came up with the pearl. Because if you’re in a quiet place and you’re interviewing someone fact finding, unloading, unpacking someone and you do this, you listen, listen, listen, ask open ended questions. Don’t interrupt, ask good follow up questions. As I say, the pearls will fall out. I like to think of the pearl falling out and clicking as it bounces along the table, so it’s the search for the pearl.

Wes Phillips: [00:09:37] That is a great way to label that something that I noticed over the years. Labeling everything was always a great approach to help people to understand and to categorize. And I noticed that you worked over the years with a lot of entrepreneurial, spirited individuals. And so in your experience and working with those that have that type of spirit and their leaders of organizations. What are the reasons that you feel they should use to validate bringing in an outside resource to help them with their marketing challenges and opportunities?

Paul Barth: [00:10:07] Well, there are several reasons. The first one that comes to mind if we go back to you asking me what my motivations were and I said I relished the opportunity for the freedom to move quickly. The opportunity to have fun to wake up in the morning with answers and ideas. That means that my mind was always working and at a fast pace. Well, fade to black, come upon later. If your mind is constantly working at a fast pace, you need really sharp people around you to try to stay up with that and to pull out the actionable information, the actionable ideas that may get lost as the entrepreneur is moving so quickly with so many ideas, with so much information and probably going in some directions that are less than productive. So that’s the first reason to have people around who can keep up, who can distill and who can pull together the marketing efforts that need to be pulled together. Another way to say that is that synergy can play a powerful role in strategic thinking and planning. The synergy that comes between an entrepreneur and bright people around him or around her can lead to wondrous opportunity. I guess another component would be to stay close. The ad agency or the marketing firm, the smart people that come from there will also help keep things on track in terms of maintaining consistency with the business objectives and the marketing objectives of that firm. As the entrepreneurs and senior executives are going into all of these different directions and having to run the business. So providing that resource divides the workload. And then, of course, there’s the ongoing need for freshness. Right, an outside firm is able to give a more global view that can blend with the view of the people inside, and that global view can help offer more powerful strategic marketing efforts.

Wes Phillips: [00:12:20] I’m going to say back to you what you just said. One is an outside resource. If they are the right type of resource that they’re bright, have a lot of energy and have the same spirit as the leader of an organization or a company that they’re working with. They have the ability to what you said earlier. They can ask questions and they can hear those pearls of wisdom and then they can execute on that building strategies that are effective that go back to what you said even earlier, which is the messaging which has to be really benefit rich. And by that, I think that’s more emotional oriented. And then if that is happening, what you’re saying is then the company’s leaders can then get on with running the business because they get too close to it sometimes.

Paul Barth: [00:13:04] Right, exactly. You’ve summarized that extremely well.

Wes Phillips: [00:13:09] One of the things that I always like to ask people is, what’s that one piece of advice that you would have for business leaders, entrepreneurs or those that are developing a brand as it relates to communications, marketing or just running a business? What is that one pearl of wisdom that you hope they hear?

Paul Barth: [00:13:29] You know, this may seem overly simplistic, but it goes back to that word consistency. Stay the course. No matter the challenges that occur, no matter the distractions that can occur, it’s just critically important to stay the course because the marketing programs are the glue, they’re the glue that hold the messaging together. They’re the glue that make that strong connection between the market and the advertiser. They’re the glue that create the emotion with consistency. It’s possible to build and nurture emotion, and that is only done over time. Feelings emotion can only be built and nurtured over time. And that, of course, is hugely important for any campaign. So consistency to maintain the messaging and build the brand and especially the emotion of the brand.

Wes Phillips: [00:14:41] I appreciate that. And then if you have a story, I’m wondering if you could tell us about a challenging marketing issue you face with a client and what is the lesson that a business leader today could learn from?

Paul Barth: [00:14:53] Well, there was a client that went into the assisted living business, and they began buying underperforming assisted living facilities around the country. The business model being find underperforming facilities that could be acquired at an effective price point, effective sales price point and turn them around. Well, what was discovered, of course, was while there may have been several reasons these properties were underperforming, I mean, a couple of maybe were in a marginal location. Maybe a couple of them had deferred maintenance, but virtually all of them had a problem with how the property was run. The attitude of the director, the executive director, I think they were called. And as that got pushed down to the staff, they didn’t fully understand what their mission had to be, that their mission had to be over and above the technical aspects of caring for people in an assisted living facility because there’s something that’s behind all the technical while call it the medical care, they need, the physical care that they need. There’s something behind that, and these people were not getting it. The directors, they didn’t get it. So we came up with a concept called The Power of Love and The Power of Love was an ad marketing tagline that was designed to impact each consistency. Starting with the director, the mindset of the marketplace was guided by The power of Love that put pressure on the director to understand what is meant by The power of Love and to direct that down to the people to really, truly care for these people with an emotional outpouring of care, care and attitude care with emotion care in the unpleasantness, not just delivering care but delivering with love. A lot of people felt that it was inappropriate to use something as blatant as love in a marketing and ad marketing campaign for an assisted living facility. They felt it was too blatant to over the top. But as it came to pass, it was very effective in meeting each of the constituencies. The director of the staff and the families of the residents and the families of potential residents and then, of course, of the residents themselves. So that communication program was highly successful and not only reaching the marketplace, but reaching the internal constituencies and changing the behaviors of the people, of the staff, the teams.

Wes Phillips: [00:17:50] And so the lesson then to other business people that are making decisions in the structure of their marketing programs is?

Paul Barth: [00:17:57] Know what your core product is and build the emotional story around that core product and build the marketing around that core product and direct that core product to each of your constituencies. Current customers, clients, potential customers, clients, internal team members.

Wes Phillips: [00:18:22] Well, Paul, this has been an enlightening conversation. 1972 through 2022, you have made such a huge difference with your insight and your emotional commitment to helping others succeed. And I really appreciate you taking the time today to spend your time today. Sharing so that others can benefit from your experience and your insight,

Paul Barth: [00:18:44] You’re welcome, I appreciate it. This was fun.

Wes Phillips: [00:18:52] Thank you for listening to The 19: Entrepreneur Edition with Paul Barth. To learn more about Orange Label, visit our website at orangelabeladvertising.com. If you have additional thoughts on the topics we discuss today, send us an email. You can send questions and comments to info@orangelabeladvertising.com.

Wes Phillips: [00:19:19] A special thank you goes out to our contributors, Senior Studio Manager Kelsey Phillips, Micah Panzich, who edits our show, Krystina Holford, copywriter, and Ashley Ruiz, Senior Content Writer. Be sure to subscribe to The 19 on Apple Podcasts, Google Play and Spotify, and if you like what you heard today, leave us a review!

The post The 19: Entrepreneur Edition Celebrating 50 Years with Agency Founder Paul Barth appeared first on Orange Label.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:00:06] This is The 19. In 19 minutes or less game changing insights from Orange Label, the leading response marketing agency for established brands that are driven by a fearless entrepreneurial mindset.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:00:24] Welcome back to The 19: Entrepreneur Edition with the CEO Whisperer and Business Growth Guru Cameron Herold. In part one we talked about the power in creating a Vivid Vision instead of a Mission statement or a Vision Statement and in today’s episode we’re discussing how to make your work culture the best it can be. Spoiler alert – as a COO, there’s always something else you can do to elevate your company. Here’s some tips on where to begin.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:00:55] So let’s switch over to creating a world class culture. You’ve done a lot of work around that, so tell me about culture and how it can inspire internal teams, potential customers and current customers. What’s the role of culture in an organization?

Cameron Herold: [00:01:09] So first off, I think we’ve really been done a bit of a disservice by the mass media on what company culture is, what the mass media talked about were perks. You know, they talked about the foosball table and the free lunches and the the massage therapists coming in to do massages. That’s not culture. Those are perks that you’re giving your employees. Culture starts. If I think about like a jigsaw puzzle, the corners, the four corners of the jigsaw puzzle are the culture. The first one is your Vivid Vision. So it’s that alignment that everyone can see what the CEO can see. If everyone can see the same vision, if everyone is on the same page. If you get rid of all the people that don’t like what they see and you keep attracting more people that do like what they see. That’s the first corner of the jigsaw puzzle. The second corner of the jigsaw puzzle. Are your company’s core values. You have to hire based on the core values. You have to fire people based on the core values. You have to obsess about living the core values on a daily basis. You have to celebrate the core values. You’ve got to thank people for emulating and living the core values, and you have to reinforce them on a daily basis. Most companies get their core values wrong because they either have single words as a core value, which end up being confusing. So core values should be short phrases such as deliver what you promise, respect the individual, pride in all you do right? Very easy to understand. Core values should be limited to four or five core values, not seven or ten. If you have so many core values, you can’t live them. So if you have four or five, then you’re probably willing to fire people who break them. And then the core values have to be something that you’re going to recruit on. So that’s one area that that companies need to really focus on. As the second corner, right, are the core values and the culture emerges from those. The second or the third corner of the jigsaw puzzle is your BHAG, your big, hairy, audacious goal. And that’s a Jim Collins term from Good to Great. A lot of companies do it wrong where they say their BHAG (bee-hag) is a billion, whatever or a million some things. By definition, a BHAG is not measurable. It’s an aligning force inside of the organization that from the outside feels impossible and from the inside feels plausible. So great examples of BHAGs Boeing in the fifties said their BHAGs was to democratize air travel to make air travel accessible for everyone. Google’s BHAG was to organize the world’s information. Nike’s BHAG in the early seventies was to crush Adidas. Microsoft’s BHAG was to put a computer on every desktop and then later they abridge that to and in every household. So none of those are measurable. None of those were a billion units. And from the outside, when any of those companies said it, it seemed crazy. You know, Microsoft is an example doesn’t make and never has made computers, but their BHAG was to put a computer on every desk. So they wanted to create insanely great tools and products because their operating system, DOS and then their office suite later were on all of these computers. So they wanted to make that use, right? So and in the early seventies, if you were Nike and you said to crush Adidas, people would have thought you were crazy because Adidas owned the sporting world back in the seventies. That’s the third corner of your jigsaw puzzle. My BHAG is to replace vision statements with Vivid Visions worldwide. I can see that being possible, but people from the outside might think I’m nuts. But watch what starts to happen over the years is more and more people know more and more people share it right. The fourth corner of your jigsaw puzzle is your core purpose, and it’s really understanding your core purpose so that employees understand why we say yes to certain projects. Why we’re driving towards certain initiatives. Why we say no to certain things. So my core purpose is to help entrepreneurs make their dreams happen. It’s why I said yes to being on your podcast. It’s why I said no the other day to a speaking event that was for government. I don’t work with government. It doesn’t matter how much money you’re going to pay me, it’s not going to land the same way that it worked with a group of entrepreneurs. My Second In Command podcast, my books, my COO Alliance, my invest in your leaders course are all driving towards my core purpose of helping entrepreneurs make their dreams happen. So culture is being aligned with those four corners of the jigsaw puzzle. And then the first side of your jigsaw puzzle for culture are all of the people systems, and it’s the interviewing, recruiting, hiring, training and leadership development of people. That’s what culture is and where it comes from.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:05:42] Wow. When you explain it like that, it’s really deep. It’s like culture is everything.

Cameron Herold: [00:05:46] Yeah, yeah. And and again, I’ve always believed that to build an amazing company, it has to be a little more than a business, a little bit less than a religion. It has to be in that zone of a cult and the cult, the culture right. The culture emerges from vision, core values, core purpose and these BHAGs. Culture is not about a massage and free lunches.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:06:09] So how’s that maintained over time?

Cameron Herold: [00:06:12] It’s reinforced, you recruit based on it, you only hire people that are excited about it, you fire people who break them. Enron had core values, but they didn’t live them. It has to be an obsession. It has to be really one of the core, core, core areas that the CEO focuses on. The CEO’s job is to be the chief energizing officer to stir that Kool-Aid. So the CEO needs to always be talking Vivid Vision, core values, BHAG, core purpose, obsessing about those things and making sure the leadership team is figuring out how to make them come true. When you obsess about that and it becomes kind of omnipresent, it’s hard to not kind of become part of the fabric of the company.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:06:55] What organizations have you seen do well at inspiring and having an amazing culture?

Cameron Herold: [00:07:00] I’ll give you a really interesting one that every listener knows today, and it’s only a twenty year old company is Lululemon. Probably twenty five years old now because I have one of their very first shirts from nineteen ninety eight. So Lululemon is a company out of Vancouver, Canada. Chip Wilson, who I’m friends with was the founder, was definitely a cult kind of leader, right? He was obsessed about building great clothing. He built a snowboarding brand called West Beach. He really focused on growing his people. He got all of his core employees to be a part of a leadership program called Landmark. You know, to even work at Lululemon back in the nineties and early two thousand period. Had you not gone through the three day Landmark, you were never allowed to be hired at Lululemon. So he was stirring that Kool-Aid, right? They made all of their events hard to get into. They actually ran yoga sessions at their stores and pushed clothing out of the way that they brought their people in. It was a cult, and they were happy to pay a premium product for it. We all paid premium for all the Lulus. I’m wearing two items of Lululemon as I’m sitting here right now. I’ve got two Lululemon T-shirt on the Lululemon shorts.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:08:01] And it crosses generations for sure. I was there this weekend getting my daughter shorts.

Cameron Herold: [00:08:05] Right? So, so that culture. Now, if you remember the red bags that Lululemon came out with back in the 2000s. That the red bags with all the white sayings everywhere. Most people never sat down and read all of the sayings, but the sayings were their core values. They were internal mantras and statements. They were passionate pleas for the organization. There was the company’s BHAG. It was all of these aligning statements that were again, very cultish, right? Without crossing into the negative aspects of a cult.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:08:33] Wow. What marketing or communication tools, I know you mentioned the bags. But what other tools have you seen people bring their culture to life in?

Cameron Herold: [00:08:43] Your office walls. Your office walls have to have that cultural kind of feedback in behind you. I’m now seeing people do things like zoom backgrounds, so all of our COO Alliance members have a custom Zoom background. I even have one that I could throw up right now just for what we’re talking right now, right? So corporate clothing, your company website, right? Every outward facing and inward facing part of your company has to stir that Kool-Aid. So your company website has to feel like your brand. If your leadership team photos have people wearing a suit and tie, you’re pushing people away. You’re not pulling them towards you. Your leadership team bios should read more like a Tinder profile than a government document, right? Because you want to attract people to you, not push them away. Nobody, I don’t care where you went to university, you don’t care where I went to university. I want to know your hobbies and your passions and what you’re excited about. That’s what your leadership team bio should start with. So I think we need to think about and look for organizations that do a good job with that. A great example of culture, frankly, is Google versus Microsoft, right? If you ask people what was a great company to work for? Everyone says Google. Both companies Google and Microsoft are on the left coast of the U.S., both are in the tech space, both have billions of dollars in cash, both higher computer engineering. But Google decided that culture was critical. Microsoft focused on building great code. So what emerged out of Google was the, they call it, the Cult of Google or the Cult of Apple, because they decided that culture was critical. Apple is another great example that we will pay a premium product for every Apple thing that we buy. We know that we can get better with Samsung or something else, and yet we will continually keep buying Apple because we’re so obsessed with the brand, so we’ll pay a premium. That’s where culture, I think has such a huge premium or could have a better premium inside of organizations.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:10:36] If I was an entrepreneur and realized my culture sucked, what would you say to me?

Cameron Herold: [00:10:40] First, you got to fix it more than ever. I was speaking with a COO this morning at breakfast who’s a member of our COO Alliance, and I said, if you’re an average company, that means 50 percent of all the companies in your city or state or province are worse than you. But it also means that fifty percent are better. So you can’t hire great people if you’re average. You need to be in the top ten, fifteen percent of the hundred percent of companies to attract good people. So your culture needs to be fantastic for you to even have a shot at hiring a players. Secondly, the landscape now is you’re now competing with companies all over the world that are willing to hire people in Ohio or Michigan or Minnesota. I just had a client in Ohio the other day lost one of his employees to a company based in Luxembourg. Most people don’t even know where Luxembourg is, but if you’re going to lose a tech employee to somebody in Luxembourg, it means that company was paying more, had better core values and a better culture. So you need to raise that bar in a big, big way.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:11:44] Awesome. Cameron, thank you so much for being with us today and sharing about Vivid Vision. First off and then building a world class culture, I really appreciate it. You’ve given me a ton of ideas and I’m excited to implement some of them here internally and also share with our clients.

Cameron Herold: [00:11:58] Of course. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:12:06] Thank you for listening to Part Two of The 19: Entrepreneur Edition with Cameron Herold.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:12:10] To learn more about Cameron’s coaching services, visit his website at CameronHerold.com. If you have additional thoughts on this topic, send us an email. You can send questions, comments and more to info@OrangeLabelAdvertising.com.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:12:35] A special thank you goes out to our contributors, Senior Studio Manager Kelsey Phillips, Micah Panzich, who edits our show, and Ashley Ruiz, Senior Content Writer. Be sure to subscribe to The 19 on iTunes, Google Play and Spotify. And if you like what you heard today, leave us a review!

The post The 19: Entrepreneur Edition with Cameron Herold – Part Two appeared first on Orange Label.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:00:06] This is The 19! In 19 minutes or less game changing insights from Orange Label, the leading response marketing agency for established brands that are driven by a fearless entrepreneurial mindset.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:00:24] Hello and welcome to the 19 entrepreneur edition, I’m Rochelle Reiter, President of Orange Label. As we approach 2022, Do you have a vision for how you want the new year to look? Our special guest, Cameron Herold does – and he’s here with ideas on how to best shape yours. Cameron’s a top rated international speaker and author of five business books, including The Miracle Morning for Entrepreneurs, Vivid Vision and his global bestseller, Double Double. As founder of the COO Alliance, Cameron has helped clients double their profit and revenue in just three years or less. A walking example that every CEO needs a great COO. Cameron was the mastermind behind 1-800-Got-Junk and increased revenues from $2 million to $106 million in just six years. In this two part episode, Cameron will share best practices for entrepreneurs, CEOs and COOs to make their visions a reality.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:01:20] So Cameron, I saw you speak many, many years ago at a vintage conference on Vivid Vision, and our ownership team was so excited about it that we went back and got to work. Now we have done two Vivid Visions and we are on our third. Tell us about the power of a Vivid Vision.

Cameron Herold: [00:01:40] You got a great memory that was about 10 years ago that I spoke at that event to. I guess the real power is that all of your customers, suppliers and employees can finally read the mind of the entrepreneur or CEO, and it literally gets everyone on the same page where they they understand the look and feel of the company and how it’s operating, and they start to get inspired in how they can help make it happen. They see where they fit in the organization and they just get a lot more clarity.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:02:10] When do most businesses start this process?

Cameron Herold: [00:02:13] Well, hopefully they started it. As soon as they learn about it, they’re now hearing about it online and in my books and speaking events. The best time for an organization to start it is right at their annual planning process, so they want to roll out this four or five page written description of their company three years in the future. If they do that right at the start of their annual planning, then you can start making plans on how to make that Vivid Vision come true over the next three years, and you end up building an operating plan for one year. But everyone’s driving towards that three year shared Vivid Vision together.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:02:45] So in our instance, we developed one and then three years later, we developed another one, but it was very similar to the initial round. How do you see the Vivid Vision change for companies who do it every three years?

Cameron Herold: [00:02:58] Well, what tends to happen is when companies are really focused on executing that Vivid Vision, and every quarter they’re rereading the Vivid Vision. Every quarter they’re discussing what projects to make certain sentences of that Vivid Vision come true. Over time, the Vivid Vision starts to become true. Each sentence starts to become completed. So typically, after three years, the company starts to look and feel different that you roll out the next three year Vivid Vision, the next kind of iteration of what it’s growing. Much like a child, right? You’ve got kids that are 16 and 13. Six years ago, your 16 year old was still that same person, but they were at 10 years old. They were a very different human than they are at 16, the same company that’s evolving and growing and scaling. If you were doing a three year Vivid Vision with your 16 year old, what you would be focusing on them becoming as a 19 year old is very different than what you were focusing on, them becoming as a 16 year old. So it starts to kind of evolve and build. The core values might stay consistent, but maybe the rhythms are different, or maybe the focus on leadership is different. Often, the role of the leadership team becomes less top-down hierarchical, telling people what to do, and it almost flips the org chart upside down where the leadership team is below the team, supporting them and growing them and and aligning the team. So often that’s where the shift starts to happen. As is the company scales.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:04:16] So if a listener is hearing this for the first time, how does one go about developing a Vivid Vision? Is it done by the CEO? Is it done by several partners or is it done by a leadership team?

Cameron Herold: [00:04:28] First starting point The Vivid Vision is a four or five page written description of what your company looks like, acts like and feels like three years in the future. So what happens is it’s really best for the CEO to craft the vision of what their company looks like and feels like. And then the role of the leadership team to figure out how to make it come true. So it’s the CEO who needs to get out of the office, go somewhere where they’re inspired and start crafting the rough elements, the thinking about every aspect of their company describing the customer engagement three years from now. Describing employee engagement three years from now. Describing operations and marketing and I.T. and finance. Describing every single business area as if it’s already come true. And then you can get a copywriter to polish all that rough work and make it pop off the page. But that document is really best written by the CEO, and then the leadership team is best to figure out how to make that come true.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:05:23] You touched on earlier the cadence of when you read the Vivid Vision. So looking at it on a quarterly basis, how to make sure the momentum is happening and keeping it going. What do you recommend in terms of the tools to keep that execution going and the momentum building over time?

Cameron Herold: [00:05:39] Sure. Let’s let’s pretend for a second that we were building a home together and we had a vision of what our home was going to look like. You know, we would look at the diagrams and look at the drawings and look at the blueprints. And then we’d start building the home for a week and then we’d come back and look at the diagrams and the plan again. Then we’d keep building the home. That’s kind of what you keep doing at the leadership team level is you keep reading the Vivid Vision so you understand where you’re going over the next three years and then you get back and focusing on the next annual plan or the quarterly plan and making parts of it come true. It starts to kind of evolve over time. So one of the tools that I do is that every planning meeting I have, the leadership team and managers reread the Vivid Vision. Every quarter, I send the Vivid Vision to all of the customers and my suppliers, my accountant, my lawyer. Every quarter you have all of your employees. Read the Vivid Vision. You send a copy of the division to every potential employee before they come for their first interview. So you’re always talking about the future, but then you’re executing on today, and it’s by talking about it and rereading it and sharing it constantly every quarter that people start to feel it the same way that it usually is circulating inside the mind of the CEO.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:06:49] Yeah, that’s amazing. So you actually used it with customers?

Cameron Herold: [00:06:52] Yeah, I send it to to customers and also to potential customers. When potential customers read what you can see. They get more inspired, you know, more more often than if I used to speak about my COO Alliance. As an example, I have an organization of COOs from around the world. If I talk about what we have today, it’s cool. But if I talk about what it looks like in three years, it’s inspiring and exciting. More people want to join what they get to help build versus what is already built. I’ve had clients of mine who I used to coach that landed a million dollar customers because the customer was so excited about what this company was going to be over the next three years. They joined because of what they were going to get versus what they were getting today. I’ve even had bankers fund companies growth because they finally understood what the company was building. They never understood the financial projections or the models that we were handing them.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:07:44] Wow! I can’t imagine that would be great for employee recruitment as well.

Cameron Herold: [00:07:49] It’s huge for employee recruitment. It’s huge for employee engagement. It also is really, really powerful because on a daily basis, employees understand where they fit and what parts, what sentences of the Vivid Vision they’re help making come true.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:08:03] That’s powerful! Do you include it in part of the review process in terms of evaluating people and seeing how they’re doing?

Cameron Herold: [00:08:09] Not necessarily on on the scoring of an individual employee contributor because their job is to do the tactical work, to maybe make sentences come through, but it’s absolutely part of them deciding what projects to work on. It’s part of them getting excited about working in the day to day work. So I’ve used an example for years if you’ve ever been to Barcelona and you’ve seen the famous Cathedral of the Sagrada Familia building. It’s being built for the last hundred and forty years, this incredible cathedral being built. And, you know, 50 years ago, they asked these three men sitting out on the sidewalk and they were making bricks and they said, The first guy, what are you doing? Said, I’m making bricks. And they said, the second guy, what are you doing? I said, I’m building a wall and I get to make the bricks to build a wall. They said to the third guy, What are you doing? He said, We’re building the Sagrada Familia and I get to make the bricks to build the left wall of the cathedral. So all three of them were making bricks. But the person who saw the vision and understood what they were building had more meaning in their day to day. So it’s less about a management tool, and it’s more about an inspiration to when everyone’s inspired. You don’t have to manage them at all. They’re excited to just get their work done.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:09:14] Yeah. How have you seen the process of Vivid Vision creation changed during the last 18 months? I feel like a lot of companies were in survival mode, and now everybody’s starting to talk about vision again. How have you experienced that in the last 18 months?

Cameron Herold: [00:09:29] I’ve seen it change in two ways. One, I actually have a partner on the whole Vivid Vision process. Jennifer Hudye, with her brand Conscious Copy, she and her team have helped about four hundred and fifty companies take their rough work of the Vivid Vision, and they have a number of meetings with them to pull out more of the ideas and help them craft it and write them. So the fact that they’ve written about four hundred and fifty company divisions from all over the world has been just a powerful amplifier of the tool. But in terms of COVID and the way that it’s being used, I think companies now are realizing more than ever when you have a hybrid company with some employees coming to an office, some employees being remote, maybe employees being from different cities or states or countries. It’s really important for people to understand exactly what that company looks like. How are we operating? What are we building? What’s the rhythms in the business like? And the concept is a really strong aligning tool, much more than a mission statement, you know, that one sentence statement ever used to be.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:10:24] Sure, so it’s really transformational, especially during this time. I can see that because everybody is not going to the same place.

Cameron Herold: [00:10:32] It’s also been really powerful in the last 18 months again in recruiting new employees, because when you’re recruiting employees, you have to stand out and be different than all the other companies they could work with. And when a potential employee gets to read a Vivid Vision of what your company looks like and feels like in the future, they get very excited about what they get to help build. So that’s become powerful versus if they’re applying to work for XYZ Company and that other company doesn’t really have anything similar. You really do stand out in a completely different way.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:11:00] Yeah. Do you have any data points or metrics about company success that have done a Vivid Vision versus somebody that hasn’t?

Cameron Herold: [00:11:07] I have a lot of anecdotal ones and a lot of emails that get written constantly where people come back in and they say, wow, like, I was completely excited to write a Vivid Vision and hoping we could double the size of a company, but we tripled or it blew us away or it aligned or we just won. A lot of clients that I worked with years ago to write Vivid Visions ended up ranking number one to work for in their country. I coach two companies that went on to ranked number one to work for in Australia. One, She ended up being on Shark Tank in Australia. One that went on to ranked number two in all of North America by Forbes Magazine. Two that went on to rank number one to work for in British Columbia. So a lot of companies became very iconic cultural brands in their states or countries, but I haven’t actually measured it. But I’m getting again dozens and dozens of emails. Even if you go on Amazon and just read the actual comments from people hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of reviews about the Vivid Vision book, you can actually see the comments from people.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:12:03] What would you say are the biggest obstacles in getting a Vivid Vision down on paper?

Cameron Herold: [00:12:08] Well, the first one is that entrepreneurs tend to try to figure out, how am I going to make it happen? And instead of worrying about how am I going to do it, they should start thinking about who can help me make it happen. If we were building a home, if I was going to build my dream home, I don’t think about how am I going to do the electrical and how am I going to do the plumbing? And how am I going to install the cabinets because I know I can’t do it. I just say, well, someone will figure that out. And in the block, and the company tends to be the entrepreneur thinks they need to know how to do it as soon as they release themselves, from having to worry about how it’ll come true. Then they’re very empowered because it allows them to dream bigger and attract better people who can help them figure out how to make that come true. It becomes a who problem, not a how problem.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:12:54] Right. If you were to give one piece of advice to an entrepreneur that’s embarking on a Vivid Vision and trying to create it on their own. What would you say?

Cameron Herold: [00:13:04] I’d say dream a little bit bigger. Lean out of the box. Just a little bit bigger. Get first. Really, get out of your office and go somewhere where you’re inspired. Go to the beach, sit by the ocean. Go sit up on the top of a hill or a mountain or a ski hill near you. Go sit somewhere near a lake and don’t take your MacBook or your iPhone with you. Just take a a notepad and a pen. And start dreaming about different areas of your business. You know, write down three or four points about what marketing will look like in the future. Write down three or four points about what employees are writing about you on Glassdoor or Indeed. Write down three or four things that customers are saying about you on your Google reviews. And don’t worry about how it’s going to come true. And if you just allow your mind to drift as to what you want your company to look like and feel like three years in the future, all of a sudden you start to get pretty excited about it. And that’s really a great starting point.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:13:56] And then that’s where you invite others in.

Cameron Herold: [00:13:59] Yeah, because other people can now start to contribute what they’re excited about as well, and you can start to see sometimes areas that you’re completely missing. You might get someone in your leadership team that says, Well, how about the way that we measure our company or the dashboards? You’re like, oh yeah, I should describe that. Or how about our relationships with our lawyers or our accountants? Oh yeah, we should describe that. Or how about the way that we’re growing our our managers and investing in our leadership team growth and investing in the growth and skills of our people? Oh yeah, I should talk about that. So you start seeing some holes and some areas that you still know in your mind what you want to look like, but you’ve forgotten to articulate.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:14:35] Sure. Now, once you have the input from the other people on the leadership team, how have you seen companies market this to their potential employees and their internal team? We actually did a written version and then had a video created. What are some of the things that you’ve seen in terms of marketing tools to share the Vivid Vision?

Cameron Herold: [00:14:54] Yeah, great idea. So the first part is the finished document should end up being around four or five pages as a PDF document, including your design elements, because you don’t want someone to open up a PDF and see that it’s a 12 page Vivid Vision. They’re just not going to read it, they’re going to skim. Try to keep it in a length that is more digestible. I have seen some people do some great videos of it. I’ve seen some people consolidate and take the most impactful sentences and do visual depictions that can go up on a wall inside of an office. I’ve seen people do cartoon drawings or draw shop drawings where you know you have the person drawing on a whiteboard and they make their Vivid Vision come through with a whiteboard drawing. Just anything like that can be really powerful. But the real interesting starting point is that written four to five page description. One thing I’ve seen companies do really well a client of mine in Arizona, he had all of his employees read the Vivid Vision, and then he had each individual employee do their own vision board of how they could see that Vivid Vision looking like. So hundreds of these employees or about 80 employees did their own vision boards, and every vision board was completely different, but it inspired them and their vision, their vision board for what the Vivid Vision looked like hung in front of their desk every day.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:16:11] I love that!

Cameron Herold: [00:16:12] So it just became a really exciting, aligning, powerful point. The wrong way to do that is to have the company do a vision board because we’ve all heard that story that a picture says a thousand words. You know, it might mean something to Fred, but Mary, when she sees it, sees something completely different in that picture. So if you’re using the vision board, it’s really powerful for one person to do their vision board, but not to do one vision board for the whole company. That’s why the Vivid Vision written document is so much more powerful.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:16:41] That’s fantastic. You just gave me an idea for our next execution of it. So awesome. Your advice on Vivid Vision and you have a book on it.

Cameron Herold: [00:16:49] Yeah, I’ve got a book called Vivid Vision. And then I also covered the document or the concept in my first book, Double Double. And then I also covered it in the book that I coauthored with Hal Elrod, The Miracle Morning for Entrepreneurs.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:17:07] Thank you for listening to part one of The 19: Entrepreneur Edition with Cameron Herold. To learn more about Vivid Vision, visit Cameron’s website at CameronHarold.com/vivid-vision. If you have additional thoughts on this topic, send us an email. You can send questions, comments and more to info@orangelabeladvertising.com.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:17:36] A special thank you goes out to our contributors, Senior Studio Manager Kelsey Phillips, Micah Panzich, who edits our show, and Ashley Ruiz, Senior Content Writer. Be sure to subscribe to The 19 on iTunes, Google Play and Spotify, and, if you like what you heard today, leave us a review!

The post The 19: Entrepreneur Edition with Cameron Herold – Part One appeared first on Orange Label.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:00:06] This is The 19. In 19 minutes or less game changing insights from Orange Label, the leading response marketing agency for established brands that are driven by a fearless entrepreneurial mindset.

Ashley Ruiz: [00:00:25] Welcome back to The 19: Entrepreneur Edition with Terry Schilling and Krystina Holford. I’m Ashley and I’m the Senior Content Writer at Orange Label. In part two of this episode, we’re going to discuss copy inspiration and feedback, so let’s jump back in.

Ashley Ruiz: [00:00:44] Is there any other ways that you find inspiration when you’re writing, Terry?

Terry Schilling: [00:00:49] Yeah, you know, it’s it’s so interesting, like pausing is so huge to me. Like, I feel like it took me a little bit longer than it should have for me to write like a draft that I feel good about, like sleep on it or even a couple of hours and come back to it, like, read it out loud and see like, Oh man, I thought this sounded good, but like, maybe I was staring at it for too long. I need to cut out like three words. So that’s always helpful and like inspiration for me. Like, like, I like stream and watch a lot of TV shows. Let’s do a lot of podcasts where they’re walking my dog working out or just, you know, free time, obviously. And so like, I have this passion, pop culture, sports, you know, the business side of things. So listening to podcasts and like like storytelling, I mean, obviously, it’s just so inspiring for me to like, write down ideas, whether it’s on paper, when it’s on notes. So like things like armchair expert, smart lists. You know how I built this code switch on NPR, just hearing like real people like, you know, the actors, but just like people like, you know, even just like activist journalists like tell stories, you know, just listening to how they do that and even like success stories like from how I built this super inspiring just to read out, you know, because a lot of times they like kind of like give the light bulb moment of like how we were able to create a product that people wanted. So you get a lot of customer feedback, and it’s that’s just helped me kind of think like how I can clearly communicate copy.

Krystina Holford: [00:02:09] It is interesting how much inspiration can come from Hollywood. We could say whether TV movie streaming, you mentioned some of my favorite podcasts other than this one. Yes, of course. And it’s interesting to like I have Hulu with ads. I don’t pay for the premium version. So it’s like watching something. You can get inspiration from the show itself, from the storytelling, and then you’re interrupted with a minute and 30 seconds of ads, and that can be inspiring in a different way and merging those two. I have found for myself has been a really cool source of inspiration, and although I do have post-its, I also have a notes file on my phone of just random things like Ashley and I were talking about, like even HomeGoods, like you walk in, it’s like live, laugh, love. Like, not that, but your brain can go, you know, take a little rabbit hole down like, OK, but what three words can we merge together?

Terry Schilling: [00:03:13] Yeah, absolutely. Like, you brought up such a good point with the like the Hulu ads, like, there’s some that like Catch my eye and I’m like, man, it’s such like products that I’ve never even heard of. Like, one was like primary clothing, which is just a kid’s clothing of just primary colors. So it’s just simple for parents to like, not have to worry about what’s on the design, just like if they want to wear purple, if they want to wear blue, we could get matching outfits. And just like hearing their headline of just how simple they talked about it, it’s just like they just spoke to the finish line at the end of the day, which can be. And that’s what makes them unique. That’s what’s different. And I’m like, that’s like a great example. And like, I’ll take that and I put it into like my newsletter and just kind of break it down. So people like just to give an example of like what this is of like not how to overcomplicate things.

Krystina Holford: [00:03:58] Absolutely. That’s so interesting. The end goal is ultimately what it’s you know what it’s there for, what it’s about.

Terry Schilling: [00:04:07] Yeah.

Ashley Ruiz: [00:04:07] Definitely. I actually recently signed up for your newsletter. When I signed up it has that welcome subject line. Instead of just saying welcome, it’s like I can finally say this to you and you know, you opened up and says thanks for joining. So I thought that was a really cool approach. And I’m like, Oh, you know, like, what is he going to say?

Terry Schilling: [00:04:25] Yeah, it’s so much fun messing around with those subject lines to see what works and like. For me, it’s just like I look at the line from like Joseph Sugarman, who wrote like the Ad Week copywriting handbook and I’ve like I mentioned this to people because it’s like, what is like copywriting to you? And I’m like, well, you can get people to like, read the read the first line and read the next and spend their hard earned money. Like, that’s your goal. And so then when you have that mindset or like when I have that mindset, I can like, find ways then to get them to do that. And me, it’s just like build like a genuine connection, you know, get them curious. So I can finally say this to you. It’s like I’m speaking to you, you know, instead of like at you. And then like, this is just really what gets you to open. Like, what is he going to say? And yeah, you know, like, I want people to feel like, you know, Terry sounds like a guy who was a sports journalist who got into marketing from there. He’s from Chicago. Like, basically, I just wanted to feel like it’s coming from me, like they’re making that connection. So yeah, it’s just, yeah, the newsletter is a lot of fun to break down, a lot of the copywriting examples and, you know, help people write better copy as well.

Ashley Ruiz: [00:05:36] Yes, definitely. Is there any certain ways that you like to come up with catchy subject lines in email?

Terry Schilling: [00:05:42] Like even for me, like having formulas in the back of my mind or just like that I go to to start writing a headline or subject line, like sometimes I’ll use that, but it just gets me to write something down and get started. You know, like how to formulas like the what is this formula like for the example of like, you know, I, you know, I can finally say this to you or just like, you know, don’t, you know, don’t start SEO strategy without reading this. It’s like, OK, what are they going to talk about in that email? But just like knowing the awareness level of your customers, like if you’re like an established brand and you are having this huge sale, you don’t really have to be that curious with them. Just tell them, you know, like this will sell out or like 50 percent off everything. Like, if I’m a loyal customer to that, I’m going to open that you don’t have to get too cute, you know, as well. So like knowing knowing your audience where they’re coming from is huge too.

Krystina Holford: [00:06:32] Yeah. Knowing when to get cute. I like that. Like, you know?

Ashley Ruiz: [00:06:37] Yeah, when does cute fit into this?

Krystina Holford: [00:06:39] Yeah, exactly.

Ashley Ruiz: [00:06:41] So talking about that end result, when you turn in projects to clients, how do you prefer to receive feedback Krystina?

Krystina Holford: [00:06:50] Feedback can come in any way for me. Again, going back to communicating what it is that we’re all trying to achieve because if we’re working with someone, we’re trying to arrive at the same goal, like whether it’s internal or external feedback. We’re trying to make the sale, get the user, get whatever the goal is. We’re trying to achieve that through great copy and I want it to be great for them and they want it to be great. So, you know, if there’s feedback, if it’s small, OK, if it’s larger, what did I miss? What can I go back? How can I look at this at a different angle or do something completely different and rework this piece, you know?

Ashley Ruiz: [00:07:34] Mm hmm. Definitely. I love that. That was actually one of the things Krystina first shared with our team when she started was, I don’t get offended easily, like, you’re not going to offend me. And I think that even sometimes setting the tone and those feedback meetings that you’re not going to offend me, this isn’t me personally or anything like that. This is writing about the brand. And like you said, you want the end result to be the best and you want people to read it and buy and take whatever action is the goal. Do you have anything to add to that theory?

Terry Schilling: [00:08:03] Absolutely. I think that’s such a huge skill, though, too as a copywriter is to put that ego aside, you know, and just make it a more collaborative effort. I always want to be easier to work with compared to just like promising something like the end result. Like this, I can almost guarantee that like, I will be easy to work with you and I want to make this collaborative and bring your vision to the screen and help convert. But honestly, like when it comes to feedback, for me, it’s like build up and don’t tear down. So it’s just like, be constructive with the criticism. It’s just like, how can we say this? Like, even if I’m editing something for like a writer that I’m working with, even it’s just like so subtle. We’re just like, this was really good. Like, let’s establish this like you did a really good job of like setting up an example here. Let’s add that in in a couple more spots here, and they’re like, let them know kind of what’s working to like, build up on that confidence. Don’t just say, Oh, this is great, because that just it’s really vague and we just don’t know what I did, right? Maybe what could be improved on? So, yeah, build up. Don’t just completely tear down. Don’t be so vague with the feedback.

Krystina Holford: [00:09:06] Yeah, I think being specific is super, super helpful. I know actually you and I have talked about this of, you know, if you want more, OK, what more do you want more literal words? Do you want more emotion, more education? What can I? What is it that you want more of? So that that can be delivered? What can I do for you?

Terry Schilling: [00:09:30] It’s just like, let’s like, let’s jazz this part up. It’s like, What does this mean? What are we doing here?

Ashley Ruiz: [00:09:35] Yeah, Like make it more punchy!

Krystina Holford: [00:09:38] Do you want your adverbs? Like what?

Terry Schilling: [00:09:42] Yeah, it needs to be more punchy. Yeah, it’s like, OK.

Krystina Holford: [00:09:46] Yeah. What does punchy mean to you?

Terry Schilling: [00:09:49] Yeah. Sometimes it’s like it’s hard to just even follow up with that with a question like, I just have to just like almost sometimes just assume what they mean there.

Krystina Holford: [00:09:59] Kind of takes like context clues.

Terry Schilling: [00:10:02] exactly. Yeah.

Ashley Ruiz: [00:10:05] I love the point that you made to Terry, where it’s like even good feedback can be expanded upon, and that’s something I think I’ve never really thought about before. It’s like, Oh, that’s good, and I just feel good about it. What resonated with you from it, And it’s really kind of making it that tactical point where it’s like, then this is makes it easier to replicate in the future.

Terry Schilling: [00:10:26] Yeah, absolutely. Like, I had a client. There’s a lot of stuff that you wanted like to add in and improve on, but you started like the feedback. Like, there’s a lot of strong things in here like this line was really good. I’d like to see more of that and then like going through the Google Doc and seeing and I’m like, OK, yeah, I see what she means there. But even that like. If you get an email or a comment right away, we’re just like, no, this doesn’t work because like the first thing you see, you’re like, All right, this may be a long day, but like even just like some type of confidence to keep going like of what you’re doing well and what we can incorporate, you know, because like, that’s so huge. Like as a copywriter, like especially my site, as a freelancer, it’s like I work alone. Like, I can’t really always bounce ideas off multiple people, you know? So like having that collaborative side with the client is, you know, it’s important for me, like if we can like, just go back and forth and talk about what’s good, what needs to be improved on?

Krystina Holford: [00:11:16] Definitely. Definitely.

Ashley Ruiz: [00:11:19] All right. So this is a big question as we wrap up. If you were to give one piece of advice on how brands can get the most from their writers. Wow, what would you say, Terry?

Terry Schilling: [00:11:28] Hmm. I’d say give them the goal and then let them find their path, let them be creative, let them do their thing and just trust them that they like one that they could figure it out, but that they’re going to do the research that they’re going to come up with some good ideas. You don’t have to micromanage them, you know, for so long. But yeah, just kind of talk about the end goal. And then just all right, now, let’s get there. And then just have them go from there. Because like writers, we like to we like to be creative. We like to feel like we’re creative. And if we feel like that’s a little bit there’s like a shield up there, we’re just like, Look, I feel like you already know what you want. Like, let’s just give you some multiple options here of what could work. Yeah, I think that’s that’s going to set everybody up for success because you, the client, can put their ego aside and be like, Look, this is this is good. We’re going to have fresh approach on this and we can talk this out and even combine ideas as well.

Ashley Ruiz: [00:12:22] Mm hmm. I love that. Krystina, any advice to share on how brands can best work with their writers? I know you have experience with freelance and agency as well, so it’s great to have that point of view.

Krystina Holford: [00:12:35] Yeah. Getting that end goal, that’s what it’s all about. We’re all on the same page. So first getting on the same page so that we can all try to meet that end goal. And I’ve said it so many times in such a short span here, but I’m going to say it again, communication, making sure that everybody knows what we’re trying to achieve. What’s the call to action? What are we trying to get out of this piece of copy? Whether it’s a tagline, an email newsletter or a blog post, whatever it is, trying to make sure that everyone knows what is supposed to happen so that the copywriter can make that happen again. Like you said, if you have like a copywriter that you trust to achieve that goal, you’re going to get it. Well, hopefully, but…

Terry Schilling: [00:13:25] That communication too, just helps with like the copywriter and the designer, because that’s a huge relationship and partnership there because like the copy could be really good. But if the design is bad and the copy doesn’t translate how you want it to, you’re going to have a tough time of converting customers and getting them to where they want to be. So like even that, just like knowing the goal for everybody involved, it’s like, All right, now, let’s put this call to action up here with the designer. How do we want? Where do we want want it to look like? It’s super important.

Krystina Holford: [00:13:54] That’s a great point. The relationship dynamic with everyone on the team and specifically with designers because great copy goes hand in hand with great visuals. So to make sure that those two things are working together and it’s really important.

Ashley Ruiz: [00:14:09] Yeah, that is a great point. Terry, do you ever work with the designers or have some communication with them during your writing process?

Terry Schilling: [00:14:17] Yeah, absolutely. I feel like majority of like, especially if I’m on working on a website project, you know, I love to include and just let them know like, I’m would love to meet with their designer on this and just like, talk through it, even have them involved with the project. Like, after this, I have to deliver the copy to see like what it looks like, because sometimes I feel like I may have a great headline and I’m like, well, this just is like three words too long. Like, We need to cut this down because it does look bad sometimes like to like. I make up mockups myself like in Canva, and we’ll like give that to client in case like they don’t have a designer yet, but at least we can see how it looks, because even then, from my perspective, I could see like, all right, this headlines too long. This subhead or feature is just, I’m saying what I want to say, but it clearly just looks like, you know, a big block of Lego and like on the page. So I need to update that. But yeah, I always recommend the copywriter and designer, you know, to partner up for sure.

Krystina Holford: [00:15:10] Yes, definitely.

Ashley Ruiz: [00:15:12] Exactly. Well, thank you both so much for being on The 19 today. I had a really great conversation with you both and learned so much and hopefully our audience does as well. Thank you, Terry, for joining us and Krystina.

Krystina Holford: [00:15:24] Thank you so much.

Terry Schilling: [00:15:24] Yeah, thank you both so much. This was a lot of fun.

Krystina Holford: [00:15:27] Yeah, thank you.

Ashley Ruiz: [00:15:34] Thank you for listening to part two of The 19: Entrepreneur Edition with Terry Schilling and Krystina Holford. To learn more about Terry’s copywriting and copy coaching services, visit his website at TerrySchillingWrites.com. If you have additional thoughts on this topic, send us an email. You can send questions, comments and more to info@orangelabeladvertising.com.

Ashley Ruiz: [00:16:03] Thank you to the people who made today’s episode possible. Orange Label President Rochelle Reiter, Senior Studio Manager Kelsey Phillips, Copywriter Krystina Holford and Senior Designer Micah Panzich, who edits the show. Be sure to subscribe to The 19 on iTunes, Google Play and Spotify. And if you like what you heard today, leave us a review!

The post The 19: Entrepreneur Edition with Terry Schilling – Part Two appeared first on Orange Label.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:00:06] This is the 19. In 19 minutes or less, game changing insights from Orange Label, the leading response marketing agency for established brands that are driven by a fearless entrepreneurial mindset.

Rochelle Reiter: [00:00:24] Hello and welcome to The 19: Entrepreneur Edition, I’m Rochelle Reiter, President of Orange Label. Today, we’re going to switch things up a bit and do a roundtable talk on how to get the best from your copywriting team, whether that be your agency, freelancers or someone on staff here to share helpful tips and inspiration, we have Orange Label Senior Content Writer Ashley Ruiz and Copywriter Krystina Holford, along with our special guest copywriter and copy coach Terry Schilling. Since Ashley will be leading today’s discussion. I’ll let her take it from here!

Ashley Ruiz: [00:00:58] Thanks for joining us here on the 19 today, as Rochelle said, I’m Ashley and I’m the senior content writer at Orange Label. I’ve been with Orange Label for almost three years and what I love most about our agency and our clients is that I get to tell brand stories in a variety of different ways. In the past, I’ve really enjoyed interviewing small business owners for local and Latina Magazine. And now that I’m in marketing, I’m able to play a role in a wide range of brand voices, but enough about me. Terry, can you tell us a bit about yourself and your copywriting journey?

Terry Schilling: [00:01:29] Yeah, absolutely! So I am a copywriter in Chicago and I have only left really the Chicago land area to go to college. And there I was, studying to be a sports journalist, so I was really into the broadcast journalism and basically after that, after college did a little bit of freelancing from broadcasting side and sports reporting. And then I eventually worked for a startup, got into copywriting and marketing and got hired as a junior copywriter for an agency. And then from there just really got the entrepreneur bug, if you will, to do it on my own went all in on there and just wanted a little bit more variety from things I was working on at the agency and just felt that I could take it on. And, you know, here we are still like evolving my services, learning what I like, learning, you know, how to pitch those services efficiently. That also just pays the bills to at the end of the day, but really like fine things that I like to enjoy, you know, as well. But yeah, did not really think I’d get into copywriting from how I started. But the more I hear people who were like in journalism, the more I like, See, it’s such a simple pivot, you know, to go into marketing, and a lot of people have made a similar shift.

Ashley Ruiz: [00:02:36] Definitely. I had a bit of a similar shift with that as well. What would you say are the top three services that you offer?

Terry Schilling: [00:02:44] Yeah, I offer website copy, brand messaging and then working a lot with email marketing with different companies. So helping them almost as a consultant where we look at like their nurture series or help them build lead magnets and help them with newsletters. But that conversion copy side is really a main focus of what I offer to the brand messaging. But yeah, including that in email marketing, those are really the three big ones that I offer.

Ashley Ruiz: [00:03:10] Ok. Awesome. Yeah, I know we’re getting ready to have a lot of emails coming our way with all the holidays coming up as well.

Terry Schilling: [00:03:16] Oh my gosh, yes. All the cheesy subject lines. Yes, no doubt.

Ashley Ruiz: [00:03:22] Krystina, we know each other, but the audience doesn’t yet. Can you tell us a bit about yourself and why you love copywriting?

Krystina Holford: [00:03:28] Sure. I’ve been with Orange Label in a full time capacity for a couple of months. Before that, I was writing for Orange Label Freelance, which kind of is cool because it gave me a unique perspective of coming into different brands. Before that, I was doing freelance writing on and off for almost 10 years. I worked in in-house marketing and I majored in English, so I went in going, I totally want to be a writer. How do I be a writer? And got into the marketing side first and found people asking me, which I feel really lucky that that’s kind of how I got into it of people being like, Hey, can I pay you to write something? And being like, Yes, sure, and learn as I go. My first jobs came because I had a friend be like, I have to hire someone to write a press release, and I was like, What’s a press release? She was like, Google it and do it. And I was like, Great, OK. So that’s how I got my start, and I have kind of evolved from there and honed in on my skill set. And I love it. I love being able to tell different brand stories and yeah.

Terry Schilling: [00:04:36] That’s awesome! I like once you get that first invoice slash money to your bank account from like a writing job, it’s like, man, it’s just so validating that you can do it. Like, I got paid like forty five bucks to write, to go straight a children’s story, my first ever freelance project. And it’s just like now, it’s just obviously just transformed into so many things. But once you get that first one in a couple more, yeah, it’s super inspiring and motivating.

Krystina Holford: [00:05:01] That’s such a cool first project. How did you end up in that?

Terry Schilling: [00:05:05] I found that on Elance, like I was at the agency and wanted to do more work and earn some extra money, and so started looking at jobs and just apply to them like, Oh, this could be fun because I really didn’t know what I was looking for, you know of what to do and then just did that. And then it was interesting.

Krystina Holford: [00:05:22] That’s awesome. Sounds like a lot of fun.

Terry Schilling: [00:05:24] Yeah.

Ashley Ruiz: [00:05:24] All right. So when working on a new client project, what are some of the details you would say that you need up front? Do you prefer working with creative meetings or creative briefs, Terry?

Terry Schilling: [00:05:33] Yeah, great question. When I like to bring on a new project, someone reaches out to me, you know, learning a little bit more about what I do. And let’s say it’s a big website copy project. And if they have a creative brief where they there’s a link to their site, some deliverables that they’re looking for anything from like a brand style guide, brand messaging guide is always really helpful for me from the jump. And like I’ve learned, like to ask clients, too, of just like, where are they at, you know, especially if they’re a little bit more established in the branding side of things like do you know how you talk about yourself, like online through like social media, on your website, across the different channels? So getting an idea of that is super helpful. And if they haven’t, also then the light bulb goes off in my head that I can help them write that as well. So it’s kind of like an interesting situation there. But even just knowing that of where they’re coming from, it helps with the research side of things a little bit more specific questions to ask to help them establish that brand voice and tone. Our goal is to get their customer to act. So we want to have these different formulas and these different ways that we can get people curious to keep reading and ultimately click, you know, take advantage of it, offer what have you. But also just we want to know as much about the audience as possible. And if we know that, then we can establish the right voice where it just feels like we’re having a one on one conversation. You know, good copywriting feels like that conversation over a glass of wine, beer, coffee, what have you compared to reading a term paper, you know, to a 70 year old English professor.

Ashley Ruiz: [00:06:59] Yes, so true. You definitely don’t want to have to be reading it over and over again because no one is going to do that.

Terry Schilling: [00:07:05] Yeah.

Krystina Holford: [00:07:05] And it’s kind of, like you said, are they aware of their brand and their voice and everything? And I think that kind of starts the jumping off point for communication with clients. I know that that’s a really important for me kind of getting any information that I can like, Ashley said. Like a creative brief or like you said the email link, what do they have at our disposal that we can dove into? And even if we don’t use all the information like having it, just kind of hang out in the back of your head for me is super helpful to just have information and communication with them.

Terry Schilling: [00:07:40] Yeah, absolutely. And once I get an idea of the deliverables and where we’re going, and if I move forward with a project, I always like to have a questionnaire that they fill out that has more of those questions. So send those to like the key decision makers so I can get a good idea of how they talk about their business and how they talk about their audience as well. You know, also just liking to know who is going to be looking at this copy and reviewing it and like who we’re working on with all the team. That way, we can set those expectations of like, who’s going to be reviewing the copy and like how long it may take. Even those factors are, you know, important when learning, you know, more about the project and setting up a copywriter, you know, first success. Because if they have to wait and talk to an account manager, creative director, designer, all these things, it’s just like, let’s set up Slack. Let’s get a meeting to make it as smooth as possible.

Krystina Holford: [00:08:24] Absolutely.

Ashley Ruiz: [00:08:25] Yeah, definitely. I love that you send them questions like that. Sometimes I like to have those conversations with them, or I just get to hear what they’re saying about their brand and let them know this is something informal. I just want to hear how you conversationally talk about your brand, and I think sometimes they can get caught up on that. Well, like, Oh, this isn’t exactly the right words, but it just really helps paint that picture in my mind of the tone of voice they want to use.

Terry Schilling: [00:08:51] Yeah, absolutely. One of my favorite questions to ask is like if you had to explain what you do to a six year old, even like you get specific to like my seven year old nephew, it’s like, what would you say to them? Because if you can explain and like, get like a kid like interested or at least know what you’re talking about, then I guarantee you an adult will be able to figure that out as well. And so if you can simplify it like that, I think it’s a great starting point because sometimes the simple copy it works. You don’t have to make them feel or make you feel so smart with your copy. You can really simplify it. Don’t say dumb it down. It’s simple.

Ashley Ruiz: [00:09:25] Yeah, I love that. Where would you say that research fits into the copywriting journey?

Terry Schilling: [00:09:32] Oh, it’s huge, it’s like it’s like the oxygen for good copy, because without it, you know, I can’t breathe, I can’t speak to people. It’s just like, you need it. You need it to like live and I can have it exist. And so for me, it’s just like learning about the competitors reading online reviews. Great copy, it really comes from customer’s point of view. Like, we think that we know a lot of what we want to say because we’ve like the client has put all this time and they know what it does. But a lot of times they hire copywriter because they struggle with communicating that to their audience, you know, and their audience really like knows what they’re looking for. So if you can research and establish their pain points, what they want their desires, then you can speak to that much easier. You know, one of the toughest parts to hear is a copywriter. It’s just when a client will say it should only take you this long, any type of time frame. It should only take you like two hours, take you two weeks. It’s like, Well, I feel like you’re not including any of the research phase because, you know, talented copywriters, you know, at the end of the day, they know where to spend their energy and resources, you know, to really uncover good copy. And sometimes you can get a quote from a YouTube comment and Amazon book review, you know, and tweak that a little bit. And there’s your headline, you know? Yeah, research is huge.

Krystina Holford: [00:10:47] Yes, right. We’ve kind of touched on it, but getting into as much information as you can, like you said, like a good copywriter is going to be able to find that from different perspectives, different mediums…

Terry Schilling: [00:11:00] Yeah know where to look, yeah.

Krystina Holford: [00:11:00] Mediums, yeah. And then from there, like the timing might not even be as long as someone might think you can get going once you have everything like the actual writing might not take as long, but the back end work, the research is what takes even more time.

Terry Schilling: [00:11:20] Yeah, absolutely.

Ashley Ruiz: [00:11:23] If you’re working on something, even if you don’t use it for that certain project, then you can use it for them in the future. It reminds me I’ve heard with actors, sometimes they keep like a diary of what their character would say or something they go into that, you know, it just really helps that mindset that they know everything about it. In this case, it would be the brand like all dimensions.

Terry Schilling: [00:11:42] Yeah, a hundred percent. I recently had a client project where we were going through copy, and there’s a lot of stuff, you know, she liked. But like, we were going to include only obviously certain parts on the website, and she’s like, Can we make a document for like cutting room floor and just put all those things that like we really like that we could use for like a social media post, you know, on Instagram, LinkedIn or anything, maybe a future project. And like, I love that. And so like, I’m like starting to do that more with clients of just like, Hey, here’s a document of everything that we liked and you know that we can potentially use later.

Krystina Holford: [00:12:13] Yeah, that’s a great solution.

Ashley Ruiz: [00:12:16] Yeah, definitely. And I think that’s key is having it all in one place. I know sometimes I’ll write, you know, random notes and things. So if you have it in one place, it’s like because you you’re not going to remember, it won’t be an idea that lives in your brain.

Krystina Holford: [00:12:29] The Post-it Notes I have, it’s so terrible versus keeping it on a document.

Terry Schilling: [00:12:36] Yes.

Ashley Ruiz: [00:12:37] Right? We just need like a post-it pile because I know sometimes writing it, it does help you remember things, but if you just transfer it, so it’s all in one place in the end.

Terry Schilling: [00:12:46] Yeah, no, absolutely.

Ashley Ruiz: [00:12:54] Thank you for listening to part one of The 19: Entrepreneur Edition with Terry Schilling and Kristina Holford in part two of our podcast, we’re going to be talking more about the writing process and feedback.

Ashley Ruiz: [00:13:05] To learn more about Terry’s copywriting and copy coaching services, visit his website at TerrySchillingWrites.com. If you have additional thoughts on this topic, send us an email. You can send questions, comments and more to info@orangelabeladvertising.com.

Ashley Ruiz: [00:13:20] Thank you to the people who made today’s episode possible. Orange Label President Rochelle Reiter, Senior Studio Manager Kelsey Phillips, Copywriter Krystina Holford and Senior Designer Micah Panzich, who edits the show. Be sure to subscribe to The 19 on iTunes, Google Play and Spotify, and, if you like what you heard today, leave us a review!

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