https://www.outsiderspodcast.com The Outsiders Podcast is a real world look at the culture inside of the church. As Christians, we want to see a return of a church that is based on discipleship with Jesus, not leadership principles and church growth tactics. We want to ask tough questions, have conversations, and some laughs. Listen and find out more about us at www.OutsidersPodcast.com episodic Outsiders Podcast hosted by Brad Gross and Scott Matkovich Brad Gross and Scott Matkovich The Outsiders Podcast is a real world look at the culture inside of the church. As Christians, we want to see a return of a church that is based on discipleship with Jesus, not leadership principles and church growth tactics. We want to ask tough questions, have conversations, and some laughs. Listen and find out more about us at www.OutsidersPodcast.com en-us Copyright 2018 Outsiders Podcast podcast@blubrry.com (Blubrry Podcasting) Brad Gross and Scott Matkovich podcast@blubrry.com https://www.outsiderspodcast.com https://assets.blubrry.com/coverart/orig/30613.jpg In the Church, but not of the church Blubrry Podcasting: https://www.blubrry.com/ Mon, 22 Oct 2018 16:39:07 -0400 no http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss Wed, 16 Sep 2015 14:50:26 -0400 http://www.outsiderspodcast.com/watchkeep/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=watchkeep http://www.blubrry.com/outsiderspodcast1/2868951/all-things-in-the-light-our-talk-with-amy-smith-about-abuse-inside-the-church/ Brad Gross and Scott Matkovich Podcast Wed, 16 Sep 2015 14:50:26 -0400 Abuse Brought Out Into the Light This is probably one of the most important and yet difficult shows we have done in the past year. We first learned about Amy and her ministry about six months ago through Twitter and through our conversation with earlier guests.  One of the great things about doing a podcast like this is that we get introduced to many different branches of evangelical and progressive Christianity. Personally, I would have never guessed that starting a podcast would be akin to taking a masters' course in religious culture, but that's exactly what it has turned out to be.  As we dove into this adventure our eyes have been opened to a lot of great things that the people of Christ have been doing. But, as we are reminded nearly every month, there is also a subversive, fraudulent manifestation of "church". It's one that uses the same labels, titles, and authority structures, not to lead people into a life with God, but rather to manipulate and often abuse them. After our first show on spiritual abuse with Dale Fincher, we marveled at how widespread and epidemic this problem is, and continues to be.  Our hope with this show isn't to defame the church, but to call all of those who are good to look up and around. The epidemic of abuse in the church has been going on for far too long.  We are thankful that Amy has made it her mission to bring these tales of abuse into the light.  Take a listen to this podcast, get educated, and then act. Find Out More About Amy Smith Watchkeep Blog Twitter Show Notes 3:45 - Amy’s story and why she started watch keep 10:50 - How should someone who feels like they are in an abusive situation that’s being covered up, what should they do? 17:46 - Is there any indication how widespread the epidemic of abuse is within the church?  What are some tell-tale signs of an abusive church? 29:21 - When there is a church scandal, how does the church justify silencing the victims? 41:15 - What is it about the church that can often foster a group mentality/ethos of enabling abuse? 49:51 - Why are people so quick to defend the pastoral icons of our society, even if they’ve done something egregious? 59:29 - Enabling character corruption from afar: Ed Stetzer and the Ashley Madison scandal. 1:06:43 - Control, fear, and shame - the tricks of the trade. 1:11:45 - Amy discusses The Jesus People USA organization abuse. 1:20:10 no Brad Gross and Scott Matkovich Abuse Brought Out Into the Light This is probably one of the most important and yet difficult shows we have done in the past year. We first learned about Amy and her ministry about six months ago through Twitter and through our conversation with earlie... Abuse Brought Out Into the Light This is probably one of the most important and yet difficult shows we have done in the past year. We first learned about Amy and her ministry about six months ago through Twitter and through our conversation with earlier guests.  One of the great things about doing a podcast like this is that we get introduced to many different branches of evangelical and progressive Christianity. Personally, I would have never guessed that starting a podcast would be akin to taking a masters' course in religious culture, but that's exactly what it has turned out to be.  As we dove into this adventure our eyes have been opened to a lot of great things that the people of Christ have been doing. But, as we are reminded nearly every month, there is also a subversive, fraudulent manifestation of "church". It's one that uses the same labels, titles, and authority structures, not to lead people into a life with God, but rather to manipulate and often abuse them. After our first show on spiritual abuse with Dale Fincher, we marveled at how widespread and epidemic this problem is, and continues to be.  Our hope with this show isn't to defame the church, but to call all of those who are good to look up and around. The epidemic of abuse in the church has been going on for far too long.  We are thankful that Amy has made it her mission to bring these tales of abuse into the light.  Take a listen to this podcast, get educated, and then act. Find Out More About Amy Smith Watchkeep Blog Twitter Show Notes 3:45 - Amy’s story and why she started watch keep 10:50 - How should someone who feels like they are in an abusive situation that’s being covered up, what should they do? 17:46 - Is there any indication how widespread the epidemic of abuse is within the church?  What are some tell-tale signs of an abusive church? 29:21 - When there is a church scandal, how does the church justify silencing the victims? 41:15 - What is it about the church that can often foster a group mentality/ethos of enabling abuse? 49:51 - Why are people so quick to defend the pastoral icons of our society, even if they’ve done something egregious? 59:29 - Enabling character corruption from afar: Ed Stetzer and the Ashley Madison scandal. 1:06:43 - Control, fear, and shame - the tricks of the trade. 1:11:45 - Amy discusses The Jesus People USA organization abuse. http://www.outsiderspodcast.com/the-bible-tells-me-so-our-interview-with-dr-peter-enns/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=the-bible-tells-me-so-our-interview-with-dr-peter-enns http://www.blubrry.com/outsiderspodcast1/2846773/the-bible-tells-me-so/ Brad Gross and Scott Matkovich Podcast Fri, 04 Sep 2015 19:16:28 -0400 Energetic and witty, Dr. Peter Enns is not your stereotypical Bible scholar.  He has a gifted way of relating heady topics like inerrancy, hermeneutics, and the nature of God in a way that everyone can grasp.  Contrary to many scholars who become specialists in specific doctrines and then spend their time trying to convince others that they are right, Enns takes a much more humble approach.  For him, discovering God isn't primarily an intellectual endeavor.  We discover God as we live a life in pursuit of Him.  In this way, Enns' holistic view of Scripture requires that it is lived out, and not just merely known. But this is just the tip of the iceberg!  In this episode, Enns displays a wealth of wisdom and emphasizes the importance of understanding how our lives fit into the grand scheme of God's work in human history. We hope you enjoy it! Find out more about more about Dr. Peter Enns: PeteEnns.com The Bible Told Me So (Book) Inspiration and Incarnation: Evangelicals and the Problem of the Old Testament (Book) The Evolution of Adam: What the Bible Does and Doesn't Say about Human Origins (Book) Show Notes: 3:14 - Pete gives us an auto-biography 6:45 - How should we read the creation story in Genesis? 9:05 - If the Genesis story isn’t literal, where does it stop?  Isn’t this a slippery slope? 11:50 - If Genesis isn’t literal, who will support Ken Hamm? 14:22 - How do we interpret in light of the fact that Jesus and Paul both talk about Adam and Eve in a literal sense? 23:10 - What does it mean to say a book is divinely inspired? 26:30 - What problems arise when we try to use the Bible as an instruction manual? 31:08 - What is the change in modern Christianity where we aren’t safe to question a particular reading of Scripture? 35:40 - Have Al Mohler and Pete Enns ever considered resolving their theological differences in a cage match? 38:14 - How do we talk about inspiration in light of what the Bible affirms? 45:00 - Is a literal Genesis something that the culture at large views as “out of touch”? 46:56 - What does Dr. Enns think about “progressive revelation”? 54:50 - What has been your experience with seeing Scripture-twisting used to justify spiritual abuse? 59:46 - What are some of the treasures that Dr. Enns has learned by devoting his life to studying the Bible? 1:05:52 no Brad Gross and Scott Matkovich Energetic and witty, Dr. Peter Enns is not your stereotypical Bible scholar.  He has a gifted way of relating heady topics like inerrancy, hermeneutics, and the nature of God in a way that everyone can grasp. Energetic and witty, Dr. Peter Enns is not your stereotypical Bible scholar.  He has a gifted way of relating heady topics like inerrancy, hermeneutics, and the nature of God in a way that everyone can grasp.  Contrary to many scholars who become specialists in specific doctrines and then spend their time trying to convince others that they are right, Enns takes a much more humble approach.  For him, discovering God isn't primarily an intellectual endeavor.  We discover God as we live a life in pursuit of Him.  In this way, Enns' holistic view of Scripture requires that it is lived out, and not just merely known. But this is just the tip of the iceberg!  In this episode, Enns displays a wealth of wisdom and emphasizes the importance of understanding how our lives fit into the grand scheme of God's work in human history. We hope you enjoy it! Find out more about more about Dr. Peter Enns: PeteEnns.com The Bible Told Me So (Book) Inspiration and Incarnation: Evangelicals and the Problem of the Old Testament (Book) The Evolution of Adam: What the Bible Does and Doesn't Say about Human Origins (Book) Show Notes: 3:14 - Pete gives us an auto-biography 6:45 - How should we read the creation story in Genesis? 9:05 - If the Genesis story isn’t literal, where does it stop?  Isn’t this a slippery slope? 11:50 - If Genesis isn’t literal, who will support Ken Hamm? 14:22 - How do we interpret in light of the fact that Jesus and Paul both talk about Adam and Eve in a literal sense? 23:10 - What does it mean to say a book is divinely inspired? 26:30 - What problems arise when we try to use the Bible as an instruction manual? 31:08 - What is the change in modern Christianity where we aren’t safe to question a particular reading of Scripture? 35:40 - Have Al Mohler and Pete Enns ever considered resolving their theological differences in a cage match? 38:14 - How do we talk about inspiration in light of what the Bible affirms? 45:00 - Is a literal Genesis something that the culture at large views as “out of touch”? 46:56 - What does Dr. Enns think about “progressive revelation”? 54:50 - What has been your experience with seeing Scripture-twisting used to justify spiritual abuse? 59:46 - What are some of the treasures that Dr. Enns has learned by devoting his life to studying the Bible? http://www.outsiderspodcast.com/questions-are-the-answer/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=questions-are-the-answer http://www.blubrry.com/outsiderspodcast1/2836818/the-naked-pastor-part-2-why-questions-are-the-answer/ Brad Gross and Scott Matkovich Podcast Fri, 28 Aug 2015 20:07:06 -0400 It was a joy to have David Hayward back on our show!  In our first interview with David, we spent time talking about his life, ministry, and cartoons.  This time, we decided to dive a bit deeper.  Having spent a good deal of his life serving as a pastor, we really wanted to explore issues like spiritual abuse, the role of authority, freedom and healing with him.  He also gave us a glimpse into what his new book, Questions Are the Answer: Nakedpastor and the Search for Understanding, and why it's already stirring up controversy in the U.K. Find out more about David Hayward: Nakedpastor.com TheLastingSupper.com Show Notes: 3:46 - David’s history as a pastor and why he and his church divorced for irreconcilable differences. 6:37 - David talks about new book Questions Are the Answers. 9:38 - Why is the act of questioning so threatening to the church? 11:52 - What do you mean by the idea that the church is based on “propositional truth?” 14:50 - what are some of the biggest misconceptions about you and your drawings? 18:08 - What ever happened to the Tony Jones scandal? 26:15 - David defines spiritual independence and what it means in the context of his work. 28:50 - What is happening in within the church that is making spiritual independence difficult? 31:47 - How do people heal from abusive spiritual authority 33:05 - What is deconstruction? 35:05 - What does David think about the authority of Scripture? 37:22 - What does personal freedom look like? 39:18 - If we throw out the “rules” for Christian living, what will guide us toward Christlikeness? 44:00 - How do we help people make positive spiritual progress after we help them heal? 49:40 - Was there any outside pressure to tone down what you wrote in your latest book? 51:15 - Is there such a thing as a healthy authority figure?  Where does authority fit in with your views? 56:15 - What is the role of advocacy in the Christian life? 58:35 - Do churches have an ethical duty to fight for the oppressed? 1:01:00 - Questions are the Answer?  How can questions be the answer? 1:08:13 no Brad Gross and Scott Matkovich It was a joy to have David Hayward back on our show!  In our first interview with David, we spent time talking about his life, ministry, and cartoons.  This time, we decided to dive a bit deeper.  Having spent a good deal of his life serving as a p... It was a joy to have David Hayward back on our show!  In our first interview with David, we spent time talking about his life, ministry, and cartoons.  This time, we decided to dive a bit deeper.  Having spent a good deal of his life serving as a pastor, we really wanted to explore issues like spiritual abuse, the role of authority, freedom and healing with him.  He also gave us a glimpse into what his new book, Questions Are the Answer: Nakedpastor and the Search for Understanding, and why it's already stirring up controversy in the U.K. Find out more about David Hayward: Nakedpastor.com TheLastingSupper.com Show Notes: 3:46 - David’s history as a pastor and why he and his church divorced for irreconcilable differences. 6:37 - David talks about new book Questions Are the Answers. 9:38 - Why is the act of questioning so threatening to the church? 11:52 - What do you mean by the idea that the church is based on “propositional truth?” 14:50 - what are some of the biggest misconceptions about you and your drawings? 18:08 - What ever happened to the Tony Jones scandal? 26:15 - David defines spiritual independence and what it means in the context of his work. 28:50 - What is happening in within the church that is making spiritual independence difficult? 31:47 - How do people heal from abusive spiritual authority 33:05 - What is deconstruction? 35:05 - What does David think about the authority of Scripture? 37:22 - What does personal freedom look like? 39:18 - If we throw out the “rules” for Christian living, what will guide us toward Christlikeness? 44:00 - How do we help people make positive spiritual progress after we help them heal? 49:40 - Was there any outside pressure to tone down what you wrote in your latest book? 51:15 - Is there such a thing as a healthy authority figure?  Where does authority fit in with your views? 56:15 - What is the role of advocacy in the Christian life? 58:35 - Do churches have an ethical duty to fight for the oppressed? 1:01:00 - Questions are the Answer?  How can questions be the answer? http://www.outsiderspodcast.com/spiritual-abuse/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=spiritual-abuse http://www.blubrry.com/outsiderspodcast1/2780869/finding-freedom-confronting-the-epidemic-of-spiritual-abuse/ Brad Gross and Scott Matkovich Podcast Wed, 22 Jul 2015 23:37:06 -0400 Spiritual Abuse Dale Fincher, our guest on this show, makes a compelling case that some of the largest, most powerful denominations and church organizations have deeply accepted patterns of spiritual abuse - and they may not even be aware of it.  This is a serious charge, but after talking with Dale, it would be difficult to find someone with better credentials to give this diagnosis.  After ten minutes into our interview, I realized just how poorly educated I was on this topic and why I now feel that we need qualified people, like Dale and his wife Jonalyn, leading the charge against spiritual abuse.  Together, they run Soulation.org (http://www.soulation.org) and an online community called Freedom Builders (http://soulation.org/freedombuilders/).   Dale brings a rare mix of intellectualism, compassion, and understanding to his work.  Rather than trying to "fix" people with a particular psychological approach, they have built a community designed heal the entire person and bring them into a healthy relationship with a God that is not defined by dysfunctional expectations and rules.  "We all come to know God in different ways," Dale said before our show, "our goal is to help people find that way." We hope you enjoy this episode, and if you have questions you would like to ask Dale, leave them in the comments section below, on our facebook page (http://www.facebook.com/outsiderspodcast), or privately via email. Mentioned in this show: The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse (http://amzn.to/1MlRLqK) (book) Ragamuffin Gospel (http://amzn.to/1HSVC9q) (book) Daring Greatly (http://amzn.to/1ehT647) (book) Betrayal Bond (http://amzn.to/1Mp3iXp) (book) The Wartberg watch (http://thewartburgwatch.com/) (website) Show Notes 3:05 - Dale talks about his history and the goal behind Soulation.org (http://www.soulation.org). 4:28 - Dale shares his experience with spiritual abuse at Pensacola Christian College. 7:43 - The problem with "rules" based systems and how they convey misconceptions about God. 14:00 - Dale describes when he began to identify his experiences at PCC as spiritual abuse.  10:03 - Dale reveals why he decided to talk about his experience with spiritual abuse. 21:21 - What is spiritual abuse?  How should we define it?  25:05 - How do we speak to people in our lives who are trapped in a cycle of abuse? 29:45 - What are some examples in our culture of spiritual abuse? Are there clear examples of spiritual abuse that are commonly accepted in evangelical culture? 39:00 - Serving in the church and what spiritual obedience really means. 41:33 - What is/are the causes of spiritual abuse?  43:12 - Ten questions we can use to evaluate our environment. 46:22 - Isn’t all abuse, spiritual abuse to some extent? 47:01 - Why are we hearing so much more about spiritual abuse lately?  49:49 - What has been the evangelical response to spiritual abuse? 55:17 - What it feels like to live as an Outsider. 1:01:57 - How do people heal from Spiritual abuse? 1:07:40 - What do you personally tell someone who is feeling like they are in a spiritually abusive relationship?  1:11:53 no Brad Gross and Scott Matkovich Spiritual Abuse Dale Fincher, our guest on this show, makes a compelling case that some of the largest, most powerful denominations and church organizations have deeply accepted patterns of spiritual abuse - and they may not even be aware of it. Spiritual Abuse Dale Fincher, our guest on this show, makes a compelling case that some of the largest, most powerful denominations and church organizations have deeply accepted patterns of spiritual abuse - and they may not even be aware of it.  This is a serious charge, but after talking with Dale, it would be difficult to find someone with better credentials to give this diagnosis.  After ten minutes into our interview, I realized just how poorly educated I was on this topic and why I now feel that we need qualified people, like Dale and his wife Jonalyn, leading the charge against spiritual abuse.  Together, they run Soulation.org (http://www.soulation.org) and an online community called Freedom Builders (http://soulation.org/freedombuilders/).   Dale brings a rare mix of intellectualism, compassion, and understanding to his work.  Rather than trying to "fix" people with a particular psychological approach, they have built a community designed heal the entire person and bring them into a healthy relationship with a God that is not defined by dysfunctional expectations and rules.  "We all come to know God in different ways," Dale said before our show, "our goal is to help people find that way." We hope you enjoy this episode, and if you have questions you would like to ask Dale, leave them in the comments section below, on our facebook page (http://www.facebook.com/outsiderspodcast), or privately via email. Mentioned in this show: The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse (http://amzn.to/1MlRLqK) (book) Ragamuffin Gospel (http://amzn.to/1HSVC9q) (book) Daring Greatly (http://amzn.to/1ehT647) (book) Betrayal Bond (http://amzn.to/1Mp3iXp) (book) The Wartberg watch (http://thewartburgwatch.com/) (website) Show Notes 3:05 - Dale talks about his history and the goal behind Soulation.org (http://www.soulation.org). 4:28 - Dale shares his experience with spiritual abuse at Pensacola Christian College. 7:43 - The problem with "rules" based systems and how they convey misconceptions about God. 14:00 - Dale describes when he began to identify his experiences at PCC as spiritual abuse.  10:03 - Dale reveals why he decided to talk about his experience with spiritual abuse. 21:21 - What is spiritual abuse?  How should we define it?  25:05 - How do we speak to people in our lives who are trapped in a cycle of abuse? 29:45 - What are some examples in our culture of spiritual abuse? Are there clear examples of spiritual abuse that are commonly accepted in evangelical culture? 39:00 - Serving in the church and what spiritual obedience really means. 41:33 - What is/are the causes of spiritual abuse?  43:12 - Ten questions we can use to evaluate our environment. 46:22 - Isn’t all abuse, spiritual abuse to some extent? 47:01 - Why are we hearing so much more about spiritual abuse lately?  49:49 - What has been the evangelical response to spiritual abuse? 55:17 - What it feels like to live as an Outsider. 1:01:57 - How do people heal from Spiritual abuse? 1:07:40 - What do you personally tell someone who is feeling like they are in a spiritually abusive relationship?  http://www.outsiderspodcast.com/finding-the-radical-middle-insights-into-identity-sexuality-and-caitlyn-jenner/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=finding-the-radical-middle-insights-into-identity-sexuality-and-caitlyn-jenner http://www.blubrry.com/outsiderspodcast1/2740132/what-christians-need-to-hear-about-identity-sexuality-and-caitlyn-jenner/ Brad Gross and Scott Matkovich Podcast Sat, 27 Jun 2015 20:18:49 -0400 Why A Podcast About Caitlyn Jenner? When the story about Caitlyn Jenner broke, we knew we had to address the issue on our show for a couple of reasons.  First, it's our belief that Christians should have the most compassionate and caring voice - for all people - no matter their sexuality or their gender.  People in the LGBTQ community are God's children as much as anyone else and they deserve the compassion of anyone who follows Jesus.  Sadly, the vision of God's people indiscriminately loving others doesn't happen as much as it should. On the other hand, as Christians, it's easy to feel like certain cultural movements are gaining so much momentum that to speak with any sort of uncertainty or dissent around these issues could put you at risk of being called names, including "intolerant".  Let's face it - we live at a time when advocacy is more influential than reason. The person with the most extreme voice garners the most attention. Addressing these issues in a way that is insightful and gentle, all the while promoting a worldview that reflects the image of God, is not easy. As our first repeat guest, Jayson D. Bradley (http://www.jaysondbradley.com) offers a balanced approach to these issues that is extremely rare in the media marketplace.  Instead of turning this topic into a moralistic debate, Jayson persistently asks us to reflect on ourselves and why someone else's sexual identity has become so important to us. Show Notes: 2:38 - Jayson explains a couple of his recent tweets about being bombarded with opinions from every direction. 5:15 - How should Christians respond to the Caitlyn Jenner story?  Should the church voice an opinion on this issue? 6:32 - Are religious voices being silenced because stories like this are being so heavily promoted?  Are all voices given equal value in the equal rights movement? 8:15 - What is the truth about Caitlyn Jenner?  Is this a case of someone who, because of the shift in morality, can finally express their identity/sexuality for the first time?  Or, is this a case of someone who is terribly confused and by “accepting” them, we are really just ignoring the deep issues at hand?  What is best for her? 12:03 - What is the dynamic and balance between tolerance and acceptance?  14:50 - How do we restore dialogue in our churches and culture?  Haven’t we lost the ability to communicate as people with respect? 16:17 - Why do we think that the world has to have our opinion?  Are we to be cultural police?  Is someone's sexuality my business?  Brad expounds his current views. 19:38 - Jayson talks about the assumptions Christians make in the name of love, that are not loving. 21:15 How do we love someone like Caitlyn Jenner if our first inclination is to criticize them?  How do we approach this issue with humility rather than authority? 22:27 - How to treat people like Caitlin Jenner well and why we are failing at Spiritual Formation. 25:50 - If spiritual formation is the point of going to church, and it’s not happening, why would anyone go to church? 28:11 - What’s wrong with the current definition of Spiritual formation?  Does it just mean that we follow the rules? 29:35 - Is going to church part of Spiritual formation? 32:04 - What would a spiritual formation curriculum look like?  Should churches have such a curriculum?  Could we hold people accountable for the lack of growth in the church? 35:10 - What keeps us from moving from mastering doctrine to natural action? 37:35 - If someone were to attend an atheist church, would you be able to tell the difference between them and someone who attends a christian church for 20 years? 41:31 - What are some things a Christian could look for in a church that focuses on Spiritual formation? 42:20 - Brad proves that even his quiet time is funny. 45:30 - Jayson advises how to grow spiritually outside the walls of the church. 0:47:46 no Brad Gross and Scott Matkovich Why A Podcast About Caitlyn Jenner? When the story about Caitlyn Jenner broke, we knew we had to address the issue on our show for a couple of reasons.  First, it's our belief that Christians should have the most compassionate and caring voice - for... Why A Podcast About Caitlyn Jenner? When the story about Caitlyn Jenner broke, we knew we had to address the issue on our show for a couple of reasons.  First, it's our belief that Christians should have the most compassionate and caring voice - for all people - no matter their sexuality or their gender.  People in the LGBTQ community are God's children as much as anyone else and they deserve the compassion of anyone who follows Jesus.  Sadly, the vision of God's people indiscriminately loving others doesn't happen as much as it should. On the other hand, as Christians, it's easy to feel like certain cultural movements are gaining so much momentum that to speak with any sort of uncertainty or dissent around these issues could put you at risk of being called names, including "intolerant".  Let's face it - we live at a time when advocacy is more influential than reason. The person with the most extreme voice garners the most attention. Addressing these issues in a way that is insightful and gentle, all the while promoting a worldview that reflects the image of God, is not easy. As our first repeat guest, Jayson D. Bradley (http://www.jaysondbradley.com) offers a balanced approach to these issues that is extremely rare in the media marketplace.  Instead of turning this topic into a moralistic debate, Jayson persistently asks us to reflect on ourselves and why someone else's sexual identity has become so important to us. Show Notes: 2:38 - Jayson explains a couple of his recent tweets about being bombarded with opinions from every direction. 5:15 - How should Christians respond to the Caitlyn Jenner story?  Should the church voice an opinion on this issue? 6:32 - Are religious voices being silenced because stories like this are being so heavily promoted?  Are all voices given equal value in the equal rights movement? 8:15 - What is the truth about Caitlyn Jenner?  Is this a case of someone who, because of the shift in morality, can finally express their identity/sexuality for the first time?  Or, is this a case of someone who is terribly confused and by “accepting” them, we are really just ignoring the deep issues at hand?  What is best for her? 12:03 - What is the dynamic and balance between tolerance and acceptance?  14:50 - How do we restore dialogue in our churches and culture?  Haven’t we lost the ability to communicate as people with respect? 16:17 - Why do we think that the world has to have our opinion?  Are we to be cultural police?  Is someone's sexuality my business?  Brad expounds his current views. 19:38 - Jayson talks about the assumptions Christians make in the name of love, that are not loving. 21:15 How do we love someone like Caitlyn Jenner if our first inclination is to criticize them?  How do we approach this issue with humility rather than authority? 22:27 - How to treat people like Caitlin Jenner well and why we are failing at Spiritual Formation. 25:50 - If spiritual formation is the point of going to church, and it’s not happening, why would anyone go to church? 28:11 - What’s wrong with the current definition of Spiritual formation?  Does it just mean that we follow the rules? 29:35 - Is going to church part of Spiritual formation? 32:04 - What would a spiritual formation curriculum look like?  Should churches have such a curriculum?  Could we hold people accountable for the lack of growth in the church? 35:10 - What keeps us from moving from mastering doctrine to natural action? 37:35 - If someone were to attend an atheist church, would you be able to tell the difference between them and someone who attends a christian church for 20 years? 41:31 - What are some things a Christian could look for in a church that focuses on Spiritual formation? 42:20 - Brad proves that even his quiet time is funny. 45:30 - Jayson advises how to grow spiritually outside the walls of the church. http://www.outsiderspodcast.com/a-vision-for-discipleship-part-2/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=a-vision-for-discipleship-part-2 http://www.blubrry.com/outsiderspodcast1/2700686/how-to-do-discipleship/ Brad Gross and Scott Matkovich Podcast Fri, 29 May 2015 18:59:21 -0400 Going Deeper: A Vision for Discipleship In this episode we pick up where we left on in Part 1, answering the question "How do we naturally do what is good?"  With our guest, Shane Kuester, we talk about the differences between the way that discipleship is taught in many churches versus the way discipleship is taught by Jesus.  Specifically we talk through questions like: * How can we view obedience as a way of life instead of a restrictive list of rules? * Why our lives should be focused around training with Jesus rather than trying really hard to "be good". * How taking time to observe our thought patterns can dramatically impact our life with God. * How to practice the spiritual disciplines. * The role of our habits in the spiritual life. How to "Do" Discipleship The church likes to talk a lot about discipleship - but not discipleship as Jesus talked about it.  Discipleship in the church is characteristically presented as: * Serving as a leader in a particular church program (i.e.Sunday school, Bible studies, Greeters, and ushers) * Reading your Bible and Praying And, perhaps even: * Tithing * Practicing evangelism outside the church, or inviting people into the church. But spiritually seeking Christians, who long for a deep relationship with Jesus, have done all of these things and still don't feel like they are living out their Christian lives to the fullest.  This was presented overtly in the REVEAL survey put out by Willow Creek.  The study showed that it was the most spiritually mature believers that had to take on the most personal (and private) responsibility for their spiritual growth because the church was unhelpful in leading them to a deeper relationship with Jesus. The purpose of this episode was to discuss the real meaning of discipleship, and more importantly how to incorporate it into our "real lives".  The true test of our life with Jesus isn't what we do on Sunday morning - it's what we do every morning.  If we are going to have a Christianity that impacts the rest of the world, we must first have a Christianity that impacts every day of our week.   0:35:21 no Brad Gross and Scott Matkovich Going Deeper: A Vision for Discipleship In this episode we pick up where we left on in Part 1, answering the question "How do we naturally do what is good?"  With our guest, Shane Kuester, we talk about the differences between the way that disciples... Going Deeper: A Vision for Discipleship In this episode we pick up where we left on in Part 1, answering the question "How do we naturally do what is good?"  With our guest, Shane Kuester, we talk about the differences between the way that discipleship is taught in many churches versus the way discipleship is taught by Jesus.  Specifically we talk through questions like: * How can we view obedience as a way of life instead of a restrictive list of rules? * Why our lives should be focused around training with Jesus rather than trying really hard to "be good". * How taking time to observe our thought patterns can dramatically impact our life with God. * How to practice the spiritual disciplines. * The role of our habits in the spiritual life. How to "Do" Discipleship The church likes to talk a lot about discipleship - but not discipleship as Jesus talked about it.  Discipleship in the church is characteristically presented as: * Serving as a leader in a particular church program (i.e.Sunday school, Bible studies, Greeters, and ushers) * Reading your Bible and Praying And, perhaps even: * Tithing * Practicing evangelism outside the church, or inviting people into the church. But spiritually seeking Christians, who long for a deep relationship with Jesus, have done all of these things and still don't feel like they are living out their Christian lives to the fullest.  This was presented overtly in the REVEAL survey put out by Willow Creek.  The study showed that it was the most spiritually mature believers that had to take on the most personal (and private) responsibility for their spiritual growth because the church was unhelpful in leading them to a deeper relationship with Jesus. The purpose of this episode was to discuss the real meaning of discipleship, and more importantly how to incorporate it into our "real lives".  The true test of our life with Jesus isn't what we do on Sunday morning - it's what we do every morning.  If we are going to have a Christianity that impacts the rest of the world, we must first have a Christianity that impacts every day of our week.   http://www.outsiderspodcast.com/undiluted-christianity-our-conversation-with-benjamin-l-corey/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=undiluted-christianity-our-conversation-with-benjamin-l-corey http://www.blubrry.com/outsiderspodcast1/2700685/undiluted-christianity/ Brad Gross and Scott Matkovich Podcast Tue, 19 May 2015 18:26:33 -0400 Undiluted Faith Since the time I became a Christian, I've always been fascinated by the Church's effect on culture and vice versa.  For as many mistakes as the Church has made, it is one of the few institutions that have truly stood the test of time. ... 1:06:47 no Brad Gross and Scott Matkovich Undiluted Faith Since the time I became a Christian, I've always been fascinated by the Church's effect on culture and vice versa.  For as many mistakes as the Church has made, it is one of the few institutions that have truly stood the test of time. Undiluted Faith Since the time I became a Christian, I've always been fascinated by the Church's effect on culture and vice versa.  For as many mistakes as the Church has made, it is one of the few institutions that have truly stood the test of time. ... http://www.outsiderspodcast.com/a-vision-for-discipleship-part-1/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=a-vision-for-discipleship-part-1 http://www.blubrry.com/outsiderspodcast1/2676283/a-vision-for-discipleship-part-1/ Brad Gross and Scott Matkovich Podcast Tue, 05 May 2015 13:51:00 -0400 Addressing the Elephant in the Church On this podcast, we talk at length with Shane Kuester about discipleship and spiritual formation within the church.  I have been pleasantly surprised by the inclusion of "Spiritual Formation" programs being instituted in, what are commonly understood to be, seeker sensitive churches.  Let's be honest, large churches have taken a beating lately for surface level messages, an emphasis in form over substance, and defining growth in terms of campuses and not discipleship.  In response, churches look to be starting programs aimed around spiritual formation.  In my opinion, it's a good move, but misses the bullseye in a couple of key areas. Discipleship Must Be Central Bringing spiritual formation into the church is not an easy task.  For too long, congregants have been given the message that only God working in their life can bring about change.  Accordingly, congregations faithfully attend Sunday services with the hope that they will be mysteriously made into the image of Christ. Rightly done, emphasizing Christian spiritual formation is the right direction because it acknowledges that, while God does work and act in our lives, it happens as a collaborative effort with us, not in spite of us.  Put simply, God will not change anyone who is not willing to orient their whole life toward Him.  We are to be co-laborers with God in bringing the reality of the Kingdom of God to the world. While I am encouraged that these church programs are beginning to see that congregants need to be an active part of their own spiritual growth, spiritual formation should be central to every endeavor in the church. As I've watched these spiritual formation programs pop up in large churches, they were not central - but rather additional programs that congregants could choose from among the Dave Ramsey seminars or Wednesday evening services.  It seems that the "corporate structuring" of spiritual formation means that it will be placed along side other programs that the church has run.  For example: (http://www.outsiderspodcast.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Screen-Shot-2015-04-28-at-1.48.43-PM-300x71.png) If anything comes through in this episode of our podcast, I hope it is that spiritual formation is not the kind of thing that can be set apart from other ministries - it's not a typical program.  It's something that needs to be the heart; the very center of everything that the church does.  If a church chooses to have programs, consider how much it would change church culture if a newly started spiritual formation program looked like this: (http://www.outsiderspodcast.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Screen-Shot-2015-04-28-at-2.11.06-PM-300x91.png) In this first episode, we aimed to answer some of the questions about where we stand on the issue of Discipleship and how it fits into the lives of Christians.  While there are more questions that lie ahead, bringing clarity to this topic is the first step.  We look forward to hearing your thoughts about discipleship.  Does your church have a spiritual formation program?  Are you satisfied with the way discipleship is handled in your local congregation?  Let us know what you think, and thanks for listening! 0:48:24 no Brad Gross and Scott Matkovich Addressing the Elephant in the Church On this podcast, we talk at length with Shane Kuester about discipleship and spiritual formation within the church.  I have been pleasantly surprised by the inclusion of "Spiritual Formation" programs b... Addressing the Elephant in the Church On this podcast, we talk at length with Shane Kuester about discipleship and spiritual formation within the church.  I have been pleasantly surprised by the inclusion of "Spiritual Formation" programs being instituted in, what are commonly understood to be, seeker sensitive churches.  Let's be honest, large churches have taken a beating lately for surface level messages, an emphasis in form over substance, and defining growth in terms of campuses and not discipleship.  In response, churches look to be starting programs aimed around spiritual formation.  In my opinion, it's a good move, but misses the bullseye in a couple of key areas. Discipleship Must Be Central Bringing spiritual formation into the church is not an easy task.  For too long, congregants have been given the message that only God working in their life can bring about change.  Accordingly, congregations faithfully attend Sunday services with the hope that they will be mysteriously made into the image of Christ. Rightly done, emphasizing Christian spiritual formation is the right direction because it acknowledges that, while God does work and act in our lives, it happens as a collaborative effort with us, not in spite of us.  Put simply, God will not change anyone who is not willing to orient their whole life toward Him.  We are to be co-laborers with God in bringing the reality of the Kingdom of God to the world. While I am encouraged that these church programs are beginning to see that congregants need to be an active part of their own spiritual growth, spiritual formation should be central to every endeavor in the church. As I've watched these spiritual formation programs pop up in large churches, they were not central - but rather additional programs that congregants could choose from among the Dave Ramsey seminars or Wednesday evening services.  It seems that the "corporate structuring" of spiritual formation means that it will be placed along side other programs that the church has run.  For example: (http://www.outsiderspodcast.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Screen-Shot-2015-04-28-at-1.48.43-PM-300x71.png) If anything comes through in this episode of our podcast, I hope it is that spiritual formation is not the kind of thing that can be set apart from other ministries - it's not a typical program.  It's something that needs to be the heart; the very center of everything that the church does.  If a church chooses to have programs, consider how much it would change church culture if a newly started spiritual formation program looked like this: (http://www.outsiderspodcast.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Screen-Shot-2015-04-28-at-2.11.06-PM-300x91.png) In this first episode, we aimed to answer some of the questions about where we stand on the issue of Discipleship and how it fits into the lives of Christians.  While there are more questions that lie ahead, bringing clarity to this topic is the first step.  We look forward to hearing your thoughts about discipleship.  Does your church have a spiritual formation program?  Are you satisfied with the way discipleship is handled in your local congregation?  Let us know what you think, and thanks for listening! http://www.outsiderspodcast.com/the-evangelical-nomad-brandan-robertson/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=the-evangelical-nomad-brandan-robertson http://www.blubrry.com/outsiderspodcast1/2676282/the-evangelical-nomad-brandan-robertson/ Brad Gross and Scott Matkovich Podcast Fri, 03 Apr 2015 19:37:13 -0400 Within ten minutes of our conversation, I knew Brandan Robertson was a tour de force.  A graduate of Moody Bible Institute, published author, and a rising voice in the evangelical world, Brandan possesses an encyclopedic mind and a servant's heart. Prior to recording the show we were chatting with Brandan about some of the topics we were going to discuss, with the caveat: "Brandan, we're not here to trap you into a corner with questions but we do have a couple tough ones for you."  I said. "Honestly, you can ask me anything you want - I don't have anything to hide," he replied. I was impressed.  After all, Brandan was recently in the international spotlight when his book Nomad: Not-So-Religious Thoughts on Faith, Doubt, and the Journey In Between (due out this October) was pulled from the shelves prior to publishing because of his views on LGBTQ issues.  Destiny's Image, the publisher, believed that once evangelical retailers heard about Brandan's views, they wouldn't want to carry it.   You might think that being treated harshly at times by the Christian culture would cause Brandan to be bitter - but I didn't hear a trace of it in his voice.  Instead, his insights were articulate, bold, yet exceedingly gentle.   He describes himself as a wanderer who isn't looking for certainty, but a deeper experience with the God who loves him. Putting the love of a benevolent Father into action - to the outcast, to the poor, to the LGBTQ community, and everywhere else in the world, is central to Brandan's message. After our interview was over, I said to Brad - "Isn't it ironic that it's voices like Brandan's that the evangelical world needs to hear, yet he's the one who lost a book deal."   But our conversation about Brandan's book deal is just the tip of the iceberg.  In this episode we focus heavily on the evangelical culture, Fundamentalism, and how the Millenial generation is changing the values of evangelicalism.  We're proud of the work that Brandan is doing - and we hope you take time to consider the wisdom he has to offer the church.  Find out more about Brandan (http://www.brandanrobertson.com/) Show Notes 2:23 - How Brandan lost his publishing deal 6:46 - What is an agnostic Christian? Can it be considered an Evangelical stance? 8:34 - What does it mean to be a “wandering” Christian - isn’t it our job to have answers for the world? 10:55 - Why we confess things we don’t really believe 12:23 - Actions matter most - Putting the focus on what we practice as Christians 16:30 - How following the typical Evangelical script leads to rejection, not love, of others.  18:00 - Finding God where God “shouldn’t” be - Brandan tells how he has worked through his faith from the age of 15 until now. 22:40 - What was the draw toward Fundamentalism?  24:34 - How much did Brandan like John Piper? 25:35 - Driscoll, Piper, and Personality Cults 26:56 - Christian publishing being controlled by the narrow old line Evangelicals 29:50 - Human sexuality and the church 31:40 - Doctrine vs. Experience tension - what should guide our Christian life? 37:43 - Brandan and Brad talk about God’s humanity, Biblical errancy, and progressive revelation 43:42 - But doesn’t Biblical errancy or progressive revelation undermine Biblical authority? 48:35 - Turning from a vengeful god who expects you to pass a theological test to a benevolent Father of grace 49:14 - What are the big questions that Millennials are asking today? 54:23 - How do we incorporate these new Millenial ideals when pastors are trying to run a church with smaller and smaller audiences? 56:38 - The 4 marks of Millenial spirituality 59:22 - Why stick with evangelicalism? 1:05:05 no Brad Gross and Scott Matkovich Within ten minutes of our conversation, I knew Brandan Robertson was a tour de force.  A graduate of Moody Bible Institute, published author, and a rising voice in the evangelical world, Brandan possesses an encyclopedic mind and a servant's heart. Within ten minutes of our conversation, I knew Brandan Robertson was a tour de force.  A graduate of Moody Bible Institute, published author, and a rising voice in the evangelical world, Brandan possesses an encyclopedic mind and a servant's heart. Prior to recording the show we were chatting with Brandan about some of the topics we were going to discuss, with the caveat: "Brandan, we're not here to trap you into a corner with questions but we do have a couple tough ones for you."  I said. "Honestly, you can ask me anything you want - I don't have anything to hide," he replied. I was impressed.  After all, Brandan was recently in the international spotlight when his book Nomad: Not-So-Religious Thoughts on Faith, Doubt, and the Journey In Between (due out this October) was pulled from the shelves prior to publishing because of his views on LGBTQ issues.  Destiny's Image, the publisher, believed that once evangelical retailers heard about Brandan's views, they wouldn't want to carry it.   You might think that being treated harshly at times by the Christian culture would cause Brandan to be bitter - but I didn't hear a trace of it in his voice.  Instead, his insights were articulate, bold, yet exceedingly gentle.   He describes himself as a wanderer who isn't looking for certainty, but a deeper experience with the God who loves him. Putting the love of a benevolent Father into action - to the outcast, to the poor, to the LGBTQ community, and everywhere else in the world, is central to Brandan's message. After our interview was over, I said to Brad - "Isn't it ironic that it's voices like Brandan's that the evangelical world needs to hear, yet he's the one who lost a book deal."   But our conversation about Brandan's book deal is just the tip of the iceberg.  In this episode we focus heavily on the evangelical culture, Fundamentalism, and how the Millenial generation is changing the values of evangelicalism.  We're proud of the work that Brandan is doing - and we hope you take time to consider the wisdom he has to offer the church.  Find out more about Brandan (http://www.brandanrobertson.com/) Show Notes 2:23 - How Brandan lost his publishing deal 6:46 - What is an agnostic Christian? Can it be considered an Evangelical stance? 8:34 - What does it mean to be a “wandering” Christian - isn’t it our job to have answers for the world? 10:55 - Why we confess things we don’t really believe 12:23 - Actions matter most - Putting the focus on what we practice as Christians 16:30 - How following the typical Evangelical script leads to rejection, not love, of others.  18:00 - Finding God where God “shouldn’t” be - Brandan tells how he has worked through his faith from the age of 15 until now. 22:40 - What was the draw toward Fundamentalism?  24:34 - How much did Brandan like John Piper? 25:35 - Driscoll, Piper, and Personality Cults 26:56 - Christian publishing being controlled by the narrow old line Evangelicals 29:50 - Human sexuality and the church 31:40 - Doctrine vs. Experience tension - what should guide our Christian life? 37:43 - Brandan and Brad talk about God’s humanity, Biblical errancy, and progressive revelation 43:42 - But doesn’t Biblical errancy or progressive revelation undermine Biblical authority? 48:35 - Turning from a vengeful god who expects you to pass a theological test to a benevolent Father of grace 49:14 - What are the big questions that Millennials are asking today? 54:23 - How do we incorporate these new Millenial ideals when pastors are trying to run a church with smaller and smaller audiences? 56:38 - The 4 marks of Millenial spirituality 59:22 - Why stick with evangelicalism? http://www.outsiderspodcast.com/persecution-complex-with-jason-wiedel/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=persecution-complex-with-jason-wiedel http://www.blubrry.com/outsiderspodcast1/2676281/persecution-complex/ Brad Gross and Scott Matkovich Podcast Tue, 24 Mar 2015 21:50:36 -0400 The Persecution Complex In his book, Persecution Complex, Jason Wiedel challenges the idea that Christians are the victims of a non-religious culture that seeks to snuff out our Christian heritage and replace it with secular ideals.  Playing the victim is a dangerous game, Jason says, because it puts the offending party into moral debt to us.  If "they" have done something wrong to us, we are victims of their power, and we now have the justification to retaliate. In this podcast, we comb through the heavy issues with Jason and search for solutions on how to recreate a narrative where we stop seeing ourselves as victims of a larger culture, but a light in the darkness.  In the end, Jason says, the solution lies in the idea that we must get rid of our enemies, not through violence, but through love.  When we love our enemies, we cease to have enemies. We can then step out of the "us vs. them" dichotomy that exists in every area of life and demonstrate God's unconditional love to the world. Just like Jason's book, our talk jumps head first into these issues.  Our talk goes deep quickly, but I think you will find Jason to be, not only be a first rate scholar of our culture, but a generous and kind man who wants to see the church reflect the imago Dei on earth as it is in heaven. Find out more about Jason (http://jasonwiedel.com/) Read Persecution Complex: Why American Christians Need to Stop Playing the Victim (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0990591743/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0990591743&linkCode=as2&tag=youverthewor-20&linkId=OT2OIFQPD6MBXVFD) Show Notes 3:05 - What is the Persecution Complex? 6:20 - If you are saying that Christians play the victim in our culture, couldn't they take that to mean that you are calling them names, and thus proof that they are victims? 8:20 - Aren't Christians trying to be the heroes of our culture, not the victims? 10:05 - Is the narrative that we've bought into taking the place of solid worldview?  Have we bought into a story, rather than reality? 13:00 - What are some examples of the Persecution Complex in action? 15:30 - Isn't it natural for human beings to want to be the victim?  In a sense, don't we all want to be the "good-guy-underdog" who prevails against the "bad-guy-who-abuses-their-power"? 23:03 - What is the role of Christian doctrine? 25:17 - Have you witnessed "victims" who feel so oppressed that they begin to victimize others? 28:43 - What is the goal of the Persecution Complex?  What do you think Christians are trying to gain by playing the victim? 30:50 - We love violent Jesus! 33:50 - Brad drops the ball 38:46 - John Piper vs. Scott Matkovich - cage match style 42:24 - What is the solution to all of this?  How do we move forward?   0:52:29 no Brad Gross and Scott Matkovich The Persecution Complex In his book, Persecution Complex, Jason Wiedel challenges the idea that Christians are the victims of a non-religious culture that seeks to snuff out our Christian heritage and replace it with secular ideals. The Persecution Complex In his book, Persecution Complex, Jason Wiedel challenges the idea that Christians are the victims of a non-religious culture that seeks to snuff out our Christian heritage and replace it with secular ideals.  Playing the victim is a dangerous game, Jason says, because it puts the offending party into moral debt to us.  If "they" have done something wrong to us, we are victims of their power, and we now have the justification to retaliate. In this podcast, we comb through the heavy issues with Jason and search for solutions on how to recreate a narrative where we stop seeing ourselves as victims of a larger culture, but a light in the darkness.  In the end, Jason says, the solution lies in the idea that we must get rid of our enemies, not through violence, but through love.  When we love our enemies, we cease to have enemies. We can then step out of the "us vs. them" dichotomy that exists in every area of life and demonstrate God's unconditional love to the world. Just like Jason's book, our talk jumps head first into these issues.  Our talk goes deep quickly, but I think you will find Jason to be, not only be a first rate scholar of our culture, but a generous and kind man who wants to see the church reflect the imago Dei on earth as it is in heaven. Find out more about Jason (http://jasonwiedel.com/) Read Persecution Complex: Why American Christians Need to Stop Playing the Victim (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0990591743/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0990591743&linkCode=as2&tag=youverthewor-20&linkId=OT2OIFQPD6MBXVFD) Show Notes 3:05 - What is the Persecution Complex? 6:20 - If you are saying that Christians play the victim in our culture, couldn't they take that to mean that you are calling them names, and thus proof that they are victims? 8:20 - Aren't Christians trying to be the heroes of our culture, not the victims? 10:05 - Is the narrative that we've bought into taking the place of solid worldview?  Have we bought into a story, rather than reality? 13:00 - What are some examples of the Persecution Complex in action? 15:30 - Isn't it natural for human beings to want to be the victim?  In a sense, don't we all want to be the "good-guy-underdog" who prevails against the "bad-guy-who-abuses-their-power"? 23:03 - What is the role of Christian doctrine? 25:17 - Have you witnessed "victims" who feel so oppressed that they begin to victimize others? 28:43 - What is the goal of the Persecution Complex?  What do you think Christians are trying to gain by playing the victim? 30:50 - We love violent Jesus! 33:50 - Brad drops the ball 38:46 - John Piper vs. Scott Matkovich - cage match style 42:24 - What is the solution to all of this?  How do we move forward?