Outsiders Podcast

All Things In the Light: Our Talk with Amy Smith About Abuse Inside the Church

Brad Gross and Scott Matkovich — Wed, 16 Sep 2015 14:50:26 -0400

Abuse Brought Out Into the Light This is probably one of the most important and yet difficult shows we have done in the past year. We first learned about Amy and her ministry about six months ago through Twitter and through our conversation with earlier guests. One of the great things about doing a podcast like this is that we get introduced to many different branches of evangelical and progressive Christianity. Personally, I would have never guessed that starting a podcast would be akin to taking a masters' course in religious culture, but that's exactly what it has turned out to be. As we dove into this adventure our eyes have been opened to a lot of great things that the people of Christ have been doing. But, as we are reminded nearly every month, there is also a subversive, fraudulent manifestation of "church". It's one that uses the same labels, titles, and authority structures, not to lead people into a life with God, but rather to manipulate and often abuse them. After our first show on spiritual abuse with Dale Fincher, we marveled at how widespread and epidemic this problem is, and continues to be. Our hope with this show isn't to defame the church, but to call all of those who are good to look up and around. The epidemic of abuse in the church has been going on for far too long. We are thankful that Amy has made it her mission to bring these tales of abuse into the light. Take a listen to this podcast, get educated, and then act. Find Out More About Amy Smith Watchkeep Blog Twitter Show Notes 3:45 - Amy’s story and why she started watch keep 10:50 - How should someone who feels like they are in an abusive situation that’s being covered up, what should they do? 17:46 - Is there any indication how widespread the epidemic of abuse is within the church? What are some tell-tale signs of an abusive church? 29:21 - When there is a church scandal, how does the church justify silencing the victims? 41:15 - What is it about the church that can often foster a group mentality/ethos of enabling abuse? 49:51 - Why are people so quick to defend the pastoral icons of our society, even if they’ve done something egregious? 59:29 - Enabling character corruption from afar: Ed Stetzer and the Ashley Madison scandal. 1:06:43 - Control, fear, and shame - the tricks of the trade. 1:11:45 - Amy discusses The Jesus People USA organization abuse.

The Bible Tells Me So

Brad Gross and Scott Matkovich — Fri, 04 Sep 2015 19:16:28 -0400

Energetic and witty, Dr. Peter Enns is not your stereotypical Bible scholar. He has a gifted way of relating heady topics like inerrancy, hermeneutics, and the nature of God in a way that everyone can grasp. Contrary to many scholars who become specialists in specific doctrines and then spend their time trying to convince others that they are right, Enns takes a much more humble approach. For him, discovering God isn't primarily an intellectual endeavor. We discover God as we live a life in pursuit of Him. In this way, Enns' holistic view of Scripture requires that it is lived out, and not just merely known. But this is just the tip of the iceberg! In this episode, Enns displays a wealth of wisdom and emphasizes the importance of understanding how our lives fit into the grand scheme of God's work in human history. We hope you enjoy it! Find out more about more about Dr. Peter Enns: PeteEnns.com The Bible Told Me So (Book) Inspiration and Incarnation: Evangelicals and the Problem of the Old Testament (Book) The Evolution of Adam: What the Bible Does and Doesn't Say about Human Origins (Book) Show Notes: 3:14 - Pete gives us an auto-biography 6:45 - How should we read the creation story in Genesis? 9:05 - If the Genesis story isn’t literal, where does it stop? Isn’t this a slippery slope? 11:50 - If Genesis isn’t literal, who will support Ken Hamm? 14:22 - How do we interpret in light of the fact that Jesus and Paul both talk about Adam and Eve in a literal sense? 23:10 - What does it mean to say a book is divinely inspired? 26:30 - What problems arise when we try to use the Bible as an instruction manual? 31:08 - What is the change in modern Christianity where we aren’t safe to question a particular reading of Scripture? 35:40 - Have Al Mohler and Pete Enns ever considered resolving their theological differences in a cage match? 38:14 - How do we talk about inspiration in light of what the Bible affirms? 45:00 - Is a literal Genesis something that the culture at large views as “out of touch”? 46:56 - What does Dr. Enns think about “progressive revelation”? 54:50 - What has been your experience with seeing Scripture-twisting used to justify spiritual abuse? 59:46 - What are some of the treasures that Dr. Enns has learned by devoting his life to studying the Bible?

The Naked Pastor Part 2: Why Questions are the Answer

Brad Gross and Scott Matkovich — Fri, 28 Aug 2015 20:07:06 -0400

It was a joy to have David Hayward back on our show! In our first interview with David, we spent time talking about his life, ministry, and cartoons. This time, we decided to dive a bit deeper. Having spent a good deal of his life serving as a pastor, we really wanted to explore issues like spiritual abuse, the role of authority, freedom and healing with him. He also gave us a glimpse into what his new book, Questions Are the Answer: Nakedpastor and the Search for Understanding, and why it's already stirring up controversy in the U.K. Find out more about David Hayward: Nakedpastor.com TheLastingSupper.com Show Notes: 3:46 - David’s history as a pastor and why he and his church divorced for irreconcilable differences. 6:37 - David talks about new book Questions Are the Answers. 9:38 - Why is the act of questioning so threatening to the church? 11:52 - What do you mean by the idea that the church is based on “propositional truth?” 14:50 - what are some of the biggest misconceptions about you and your drawings? 18:08 - What ever happened to the Tony Jones scandal? 26:15 - David defines spiritual independence and what it means in the context of his work. 28:50 - What is happening in within the church that is making spiritual independence difficult? 31:47 - How do people heal from abusive spiritual authority 33:05 - What is deconstruction? 35:05 - What does David think about the authority of Scripture? 37:22 - What does personal freedom look like? 39:18 - If we throw out the “rules” for Christian living, what will guide us toward Christlikeness? 44:00 - How do we help people make positive spiritual progress after we help them heal? 49:40 - Was there any outside pressure to tone down what you wrote in your latest book? 51:15 - Is there such a thing as a healthy authority figure? Where does authority fit in with your views? 56:15 - What is the role of advocacy in the Christian life? 58:35 - Do churches have an ethical duty to fight for the oppressed? 1:01:00 - Questions are the Answer? How can questions be the answer?

Finding Freedom: Confronting the Epidemic of Spiritual Abuse

Brad Gross and Scott Matkovich — Wed, 22 Jul 2015 23:37:06 -0400

Spiritual Abuse Dale Fincher, our guest on this show, makes a compelling case that some of the largest, most powerful denominations and church organizations have deeply accepted patterns of spiritual abuse - and they may not even be aware of it. This is a serious charge, but after talking with Dale, it would be difficult to find someone with better credentials to give this diagnosis. After ten minutes into our interview, I realized just how poorly educated I was on this topic and why I now feel that we need qualified people, like Dale and his wife Jonalyn, leading the charge against spiritual abuse. Together, they run Soulation.org (http://www.soulation.org) and an online community called Freedom Builders (http://soulation.org/freedombuilders/). Dale brings a rare mix of intellectualism, compassion, and understanding to his work. Rather than trying to "fix" people with a particular psychological approach, they have built a community designed heal the entire person and bring them into a healthy relationship with a God that is not defined by dysfunctional expectations and rules. "We all come to know God in different ways," Dale said before our show, "our goal is to help people find that way." We hope you enjoy this episode, and if you have questions you would like to ask Dale, leave them in the comments section below, on our facebook page (http://www.facebook.com/outsiderspodcast), or privately via email. Mentioned in this show: The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse (http://amzn.to/1MlRLqK) (book) Ragamuffin Gospel (http://amzn.to/1HSVC9q) (book) Daring Greatly (http://amzn.to/1ehT647) (book) Betrayal Bond (http://amzn.to/1Mp3iXp) (book) The Wartberg watch (http://thewartburgwatch.com/) (website) Show Notes 3:05 - Dale talks about his history and the goal behind Soulation.org (http://www.soulation.org). 4:28 - Dale shares his experience with spiritual abuse at Pensacola Christian College. 7:43 - The problem with "rules" based systems and how they convey misconceptions about God. 14:00 - Dale describes when he began to identify his experiences at PCC as spiritual abuse. 10:03 - Dale reveals why he decided to talk about his experience with spiritual abuse. 21:21 - What is spiritual abuse? How should we define it? 25:05 - How do we speak to people in our lives who are trapped in a cycle of abuse? 29:45 - What are some examples in our culture of spiritual abuse? Are there clear examples of spiritual abuse that are commonly accepted in evangelical culture? 39:00 - Serving in the church and what spiritual obedience really means. 41:33 - What is/are the causes of spiritual abuse? 43:12 - Ten questions we can use to evaluate our environment. 46:22 - Isn’t all abuse, spiritual abuse to some extent? 47:01 - Why are we hearing so much more about spiritual abuse lately? 49:49 - What has been the evangelical response to spiritual abuse? 55:17 - What it feels like to live as an Outsider. 1:01:57 - How do people heal from Spiritual abuse? 1:07:40 - What do you personally tell someone who is feeling like they are in a spiritually abusive relationship?

What Christians Need to Hear about Identity, Sexuality, and Caitlyn Jenner

Brad Gross and Scott Matkovich — Sat, 27 Jun 2015 20:18:49 -0400

Why A Podcast About Caitlyn Jenner? When the story about Caitlyn Jenner broke, we knew we had to address the issue on our show for a couple of reasons. Â First, it's our belief that Christians should have the most compassionate and caring voice - for all people - no matter their sexuality or their gender. Â People in the LGBTQ communityÂ are God's children as much as anyone else and they deserve the compassionÂ of anyone who follows Jesus. Â Sadly, the vision of God's people indiscriminately loving others doesn't happen as much as it should. On the other hand, as Christians, it's easy to feel like certain cultural movements are gaining so much momentum that to speak with any sort of uncertainty or dissent around these issues couldÂ put you atÂ risk of being called names, including "intolerant". Â Let's face it - we live at a time when advocacy is more influential than reason. The person with the most extreme voice garners the most attention. Addressing these issues in a way that is insightful and gentle, all the while promoting a worldview that reflects the image of God, is not easy. As our first repeat guest, Jayson D. Bradley (http://www.jaysondbradley.com) offers a balanced approach to these issues that is extremely rare in the media marketplace. Â Instead of turning this topic into a moralistic debate, Jayson persistently asks us to reflect on ourselves and why someone else's sexual identity has become so important to us. Show Notes: 2:38 - Jayson explains a couple of his recent tweets about being bombarded withÂ opinions from every direction. 5:15 - How should Christians respond to the Caitlyn Jenner story?Â Should the church voice an opinion on this issue? 6:32 - Are religious voices being silenced because stories like this are being so heavily promoted?Â Are all voices given equal value in the equal rights movement? 8:15 - What is the truth about Caitlyn Jenner?Â Is this a case of someone who, because of the shift in morality, can finally express their identity/sexuality for the first time?Â Or, is this a case of someone who is terribly confused and by â€œacceptingâ€ them, we are really just ignoring the deep issues at hand?Â What is best for her? 12:03 - What is the dynamic and balance between tolerance and acceptance?Â 14:50 - How do we restore dialogue in our churches and culture?Â Havenâ€™t we lost the ability to communicate as people with respect? 16:17 - Why do we think that the world has to have our opinion?Â Are we to be cultural police?Â Is someone's sexuality my business?Â Brad expounds his current views. 19:38 - Jayson talks about the assumptions Christians make in the name of love, that are not loving. 21:15 How do we love someone like Caitlyn Jenner if our first inclination is to criticize them?Â How do we approach this issue with humility rather than authority? 22:27 - How to treat people like Caitlin Jenner well and why we are failing at Spiritual Formation. 25:50 - If spiritual formation is the point of going to church, and itâ€™s not happening, why would anyone go to church? 28:11 - Whatâ€™s wrong with the current definition of Spiritual formation?Â Does it just mean that we follow the rules? 29:35 - Is going to church part of Spiritual formation? 32:04 - What would a spiritual formation curriculum look like?Â Should churches have such a curriculum?Â Could we hold people accountable for the lack of growth in the church? 35:10 - What keeps us from moving from mastering doctrine to natural action? 37:35 - If someone were to attend an atheist church, would you be able to tell the difference between them and someone who attends a christian church for 20 years? 41:31 - What are some things a Christian could look for in a church that focuses on Spiritual formation? 42:20 - Brad proves that even his quiet time is funny. 45:30 - Jayson advises how to grow spiritually outside the walls of the church.

How To Do Discipleship

Brad Gross and Scott Matkovich — Fri, 29 May 2015 18:59:21 -0400

Going Deeper: A Vision for Discipleship In this episode we pick up where we left on in Part 1, answering the question "How do we naturally do what is good?" Â With our guest, Shane Kuester, we talk about the differences between the way that discipleship is taught in many churches versus the way discipleship is taught by Jesus. Â Specifically we talk through questions like: * How can we view obedience as a way of life instead of a restrictive list of rules? * Why our lives should be focused around training with Jesus rather than trying really hard to "be good". * How taking time to observe our thought patternsÂ can dramatically impact our life with God. * How toÂ practice the spiritual disciplines. * The role of our habits in the spiritual life. How to "Do" Discipleship The church likes to talk a lotÂ about discipleship - but not discipleship as Jesus talked about it. Â Discipleship in the church is characteristically presented as: * Serving as a leader in a particular church program (i.e.Sunday school, Bible studies, Greeters, and ushers) * Reading your Bible and Praying And, perhaps even: * Tithing * Practicing evangelism outside the church, or inviting people into the church. But spiritually seeking Christians, who long for a deep relationship with Jesus, have done all of these things and still don't feel like they are living out their Christian lives to the fullest. Â This was presented overtly in the REVEAL survey put out by Willow Creek. Â The study showed that itÂ was the most spiritually mature believers that had to takeÂ on the most personal (and private) responsibility for their spiritual growth because the church was unhelpful in leading them to a deeper relationship with Jesus. The purpose of this episode was to discuss the real meaning of discipleship, and more importantly how to incorporate it into our "real lives". Â The true test of our life with Jesus isn't what we do on Sunday morning - it's what we do every morning. Â If we are going to have a Christianity that impacts the rest of the world, we must first have a Christianity that impacts every day of our week. Â

Undiluted Christianity

Brad Gross and Scott Matkovich — Tue, 19 May 2015 18:26:33 -0400

Undiluted Faith Since the time I became a Christian, I've always been fascinated by the Church's effect on culture and vice versa. Â For as many mistakes as the Church has made, it is one of the few institutions that have truly stood the test of time. ...

A Vision for Discipleship, Part 1

Brad Gross and Scott Matkovich — Tue, 05 May 2015 13:51:00 -0400

AddressingÂ the Elephant in the Church On this podcast, we talk at length with Shane Kuester about discipleship and spiritual formation within the church. Â IÂ have been pleasantly surprised by the inclusion of "Spiritual Formation" programsÂ being instituted in, what are commonly understood to be, seeker sensitive churches. Â Let's be honest, large churches have taken a beating lately for surface level messages, an emphasis in form over substance, and defining growth in terms of campuses and not discipleship. Â In response, churches look to be starting programs aimed around spiritual formation. Â In my opinion, it's a good move, but misses the bullseye in a couple of key areas. DiscipleshipÂ Must BeÂ Central Bringing spiritual formation into the church is not an easy task. Â For too long, congregants have been given the message that only God working in their life can bring about change. Â Accordingly, congregations faithfully attend Sunday services with the hope that they will be mysteriously made into the image of Christ. Rightly done, emphasizing Christian spiritual formation is theÂ right direction because it acknowledges that, while God does work and act in our lives, it happens as a collaborative effort with us, not in spite of us. Â Put simply, God will not change anyone who is not willing to orient their whole life toward Him. Â We are to be co-laborers with God in bringing the reality of the Kingdom of God to the world. While I am encouraged that these church programs are beginning to see that congregants need to be an active part of their own spiritual growth, spiritual formation should be central to every endeavorÂ in the church. As I've watched these spiritual formation programs pop up in large churches, they were not central - but rather additionalÂ programs that congregants could choose from amongÂ the Dave Ramsey seminars or Wednesday evening services. Â It seems that the "corporate structuring" of spiritual formation means that it will beÂ placed along side other programs that the church has run. Â For example: (http://www.outsiderspodcast.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Screen-Shot-2015-04-28-at-1.48.43-PM-300x71.png) If anything comes through in this episode of our podcast, I hope it is that spiritual formation is not the kind of thing that can be set apart from other ministries - it's not a typicalÂ program. Â It'sÂ something that needs to be the heart; the very center of everything that the church does. Â If a church chooses to have programs, consider how much it would change church culture if a newly started spiritual formation program looked like this: (http://www.outsiderspodcast.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Screen-Shot-2015-04-28-at-2.11.06-PM-300x91.png) In this first episode, we aimed to answer some of the questions about where we stand on the issue of Discipleship and how it fits into the lives of Christians. Â While there are more questions that lie ahead, bringing clarity toÂ this topic is the first step. Â We look forward to hearing your thoughts about discipleship. Â Does your church have a spiritual formation program? Â Are you satisfied with the way discipleship is handled in your local congregation? Â Let us know what you think, and thanks for listening!

The Evangelical Nomad – Brandan Robertson

Brad Gross and Scott Matkovich — Fri, 03 Apr 2015 19:37:13 -0400

Within ten minutes of our conversation, I knew Brandan Robertson was a tour de force. A graduate of Moody Bible Institute, published author, and a rising voice in the evangelical world, Brandan possesses an encyclopedic mind and a servant's heart. Prior to recording the show we were chatting with Brandan about some of the topics we were going to discuss, with the caveat: "Brandan, we're not here to trap you into a corner with questions but we do have a couple tough ones for you." I said. "Honestly, you can ask me anything you want - I don't have anything to hide," he replied. I was impressed. After all, Brandan was recently in the international spotlight when his book Nomad: Not-So-Religious Thoughts on Faith, Doubt, and the Journey In Between (due out this October) was pulled from the shelves prior to publishing because of his views on LGBTQ issues. Destiny's Image, the publisher, believed that once evangelical retailers heard about Brandan's views, they wouldn't want to carry it. You might think that being treated harshly at times by the Christian culture would cause Brandan to be bitter - but I didn't hear a trace of it in his voice. Instead, his insights were articulate, bold, yet exceedingly gentle. He describes himself as a wanderer who isn't looking for certainty, but a deeper experience with the God who loves him. Putting the love of a benevolent Father into action - to the outcast, to the poor, to the LGBTQ community, and everywhere else in the world, is central to Brandan's message. After our interview was over, I said to Brad - "Isn't it ironic that it's voices like Brandan's that the evangelical world needs to hear, yet he's the one who lost a book deal." But our conversation about Brandan's book deal is just the tip of the iceberg. In this episode we focus heavily on the evangelical culture, Fundamentalism, and how the Millenial generation is changing the values of evangelicalism. We're proud of the work that Brandan is doing - and we hope you take time to consider the wisdom he has to offer the church. Find out more about Brandan (http://www.brandanrobertson.com/) Show Notes 2:23 - How Brandan lost his publishing deal 6:46 - What is an agnostic Christian? Can it be considered an Evangelical stance? 8:34 - What does it mean to be a “wandering” Christian - isn’t it our job to have answers for the world? 10:55 - Why we confess things we don’t really believe 12:23 - Actions matter most - Putting the focus on what we practice as Christians 16:30 - How following the typical Evangelical script leads to rejection, not love, of others. 18:00 - Finding God where God “shouldn’t” be - Brandan tells how he has worked through his faith from the age of 15 until now. 22:40 - What was the draw toward Fundamentalism? 24:34 - How much did Brandan like John Piper? 25:35 - Driscoll, Piper, and Personality Cults 26:56 - Christian publishing being controlled by the narrow old line Evangelicals 29:50 - Human sexuality and the church 31:40 - Doctrine vs. Experience tension - what should guide our Christian life? 37:43 - Brandan and Brad talk about God’s humanity, Biblical errancy, and progressive revelation 43:42 - But doesn’t Biblical errancy or progressive revelation undermine Biblical authority? 48:35 - Turning from a vengeful god who expects you to pass a theological test to a benevolent Father of grace 49:14 - What are the big questions that Millennials are asking today? 54:23 - How do we incorporate these new Millenial ideals when pastors are trying to run a church with smaller and smaller audiences? 56:38 - The 4 marks of Millenial spirituality 59:22 - Why stick with evangelicalism?

Persecution Complex

Brad Gross and Scott Matkovich — Tue, 24 Mar 2015 21:50:36 -0400

The Persecution Complex In his book, Persecution Complex, Jason Wiedel challenges the idea that Christians are the victims of a non-religiousÂ culture that seeks to snuff out our Christian heritage and replace it with secular ideals. Â Playing the victim is a dangerous game, Jason says, because it puts the offending party into moral debt to us. Â If "they" have done something wrong to us, we are victims of their power, and we now have the justification to retaliate. In this podcast, we comb through the heavy issues with Jason and search for solutions on how to recreate a narrative where we stop seeing ourselves asÂ victims of a larger culture, but a light in the darkness. Â In the end, Jason says, the solution lies in the idea that we must get rid of our enemies, not through violence, but through love. Â When we love our enemies, we cease to have enemies. We can then step out of the "us vs. them" dichotomy that exists in every area of life and demonstrateÂ God's unconditional love to the world. Just like Jason's book, our talk jumps head first into these issues. Â Our talk goes deep quickly, but I think you will find Jason to be, not only be a first rate scholar of our culture, but a generous and kind man who wants to see the church reflect the imago Dei on earth as it is in heaven. Find out more about Jason (http://jasonwiedel.com/) Read Persecution Complex: Why American Christians Need to Stop Playing the Victim (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0990591743/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0990591743&linkCode=as2&tag=youverthewor-20&linkId=OT2OIFQPD6MBXVFD) Show Notes 3:05 - What is the Persecution Complex? 6:20 - If you are saying that Christians play the victim in our culture, couldn't they take that to mean that you are calling them names, and thus proof that they are victims? 8:20 - Aren't Christians trying to be the heroes of our culture, not the victims? 10:05 - Is the narrative that we've bought into taking the place of solid worldview? Â Have we bought into a story, rather than reality? 13:00 - What are some examples of the Persecution Complex in action? 15:30 - Isn't it natural for human beings to want to be the victim? Â In a sense, don't we all want to be the "good-guy-underdog" who prevails against the "bad-guy-who-abuses-their-power"? 23:03 - What is the role of Christian doctrine? 25:17 - Have you witnessed "victims" who feel so oppressed that they begin to victimize others? 28:43 - What is the goal of the Persecution Complex? Â What do you think Christians are trying to gain by playing the victim? 30:50 - We love violent Jesus! 33:50 - Brad drops the ball 38:46 - John Piper vs. Scott Matkovich - cage match style 42:24 - What is the solution to all of this? Â How do we move forward? Â

Church Culture Explained

Brad Gross and Scott Matkovich — Thu, 26 Feb 2015 23:23:52 -0500

Jayson D. Bradley on Church Culture Jayson Bradley has a way of talking about topics that many Christians might assume areÂ out-of-bounds. Â On his blog (http://jaysondbradley.com/), discussions range from Christian Cleavage (http://jaysondbradley.com/2015/01/25/christian-cleavage-probably-isnt-problem/#sthash.ZxCr8WHd.dpbs)Â to Eternal Damnation (http://jaysondbradley.com/2014/10/27/5-philosophical-arguments-eternal-hell/#sthash.2modpj49.dpbs)Â and everything in between. Â Jayson's writings sit on the verge of provocative and hilarious, with a healthy dose of humility. Â When we asked Jayson to summarize the central theme of his writings, here's what he had to say: I would say that it's okay to be honest. Â It's okay to have doubts. Â It's okay to not have all the answers. Â It's imperative that we all get to a place where were willing toÂ say, 'You know what, I could be wrong'... My blog is more about how to engage culture than anything else. Â How do we talk to people [as Christians]? Â Because the condescending tone of, 'I have all the answers and you're an idiot' is just not working. As people with a similar view of church culture as Jayson's, we found his answers thoughtful, precise, and all the while, filled with hope. Â For all its quirks - some of them really funny - the Church still is the light of the world. Show Notes 1:21 - A little auto-biography from Jayson himself 3:04 - Does theÂ Contemporvent Video accurately portray church culture? 4:55 - The problem with believing thatÂ we have all the answers 6:29 - Is it the Churches' job to change culture? 11:10 - Jayson describes the central message of his blog 14:29 - Jayson answers what his experience with Christianity has been like and how it affects his ministry today 15:57 - Where does the Church fit into American culture? 23:02 - Why do we ask God to bless our food? 26:10 - Brad reflects back on the wise words of David Hayward (http://www.outsiderspodcast.com/naked-pastor/) 28:18 - Why do people speak normally, but speak in King James when they pray? 32:13 - What kind of feedback does Jayson get from his blog posts? 36:42 - Is it possible to be a critic and a cheerleader of the Church at the same time? 39:29 - What is Christian Cleavage? 43:27 - Has the Church bought into the "When Harry Met Sally" definition of male/female friendships? 46:04 - Who are Jayson's spiritual heroes? 49:00 - Jayson describes his vision of what a healthy church looks like Things We Talk AboutÂ in the Podcast: Jayson's Blog (http://jaysondbradley.com/#sthash.KP0BTbeW.dpbs) Contemporvent Video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDNpscDSqpU) Book: Jesus the Jewish Theologian (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0801048176/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0801048176&linkCode=as2&tag=youverthewor-20&linkId=5J6QY2C2SVPMCC3I) Â

The Naked Pastor - Outsiders Podcast

Brad Gross and Scott Matkovich — Thu, 12 Feb 2015 23:04:19 -0500

David Hayward - The Naked Pastor You may better know David Hayward as the Naked Pastor. Â By producing daily cartoons that hit at the heart of the Christian sub-culture, David is a leading voice for a new generation of Christians who love Jesus outside of the church. Â From running his blog at www.nakedpastor.com (http://www.nakedpastor.com) to hosting an online community (www.thelastingsupper.com (http://www.thelastingsupper.com)), David continues to push the Christian community in the direction of truth, openness, and most importantly, freedom. Â For him, being naked, with nothing to hide, is a way of life that too few Christians lead. In this podcast, we ask David questions about his experience as a pastor, why he ended up leaving the church, and what he has learned since starting cartooning. Â He is as insightful and wise as he is generous and gentle. Â It was our pleasure to have him on the show and we hope you enjoy it! Show Notes 2:23 - What does Naked Pastor mean? 4:05 - What does the â€œundressingâ€ of religion mean? 5:57 - Davidâ€™s experience of being a pastor. 8:38 - Why David left the ministry. 10:14 - (Interlude) Brad explains why he is so humble. 12:20 - Is ministry wearing your pastor out? 16:34 - Being done with church without anger and wounds. 26:03 - Why David doesnâ€™t go to church regularly today. 28:21 - What David has learned looking from the outside in on church culture. 31:20 - How do Outsiders talk to Insiders? 35:03 - TheLastingSupper.com and finding Christian community online. 39:00 - The Emergent church, Mark Driscoll (http://www.outsiderspodcast.com/rise-fall-mark-driscoll/), and the fall of Tony Jones. 50:35 - David defines and discusses the topic of spiritual abuse. 57:57 - What it means to be personally free and the â€œdeconstructionâ€. 1:00:57 - What big issues do you see coming down the pipeline in 2015 for the church?

Why the Church Gets Leadership Wrong

Brad Gross and Scott Matkovich — Sun, 25 Jan 2015 12:14:09 -0500

Leadership vs. Discipleship As church attendance continues to fall, the number of pastors seeking out the latest and greatest leadership techniques is at an all time high. Â My first taste of this was a few months after I was hired on at aÂ church and the entire staff attended the Willow Creek Leadership Summit. Â The whole idea was new to me - measuring church attendance and activity, programs aimed at retention, the latest epiphanies from high level executives and political figures. Â It was all very polished and very well done, and I was sold. Â I wanted to be a church leader! Â I wanted to be inspiring, effective, and admired. Â I knew that, by practicing these leadership principles, I could "get people"Â motivated to serve in our church programs - it was all very well intentioned, I assure you. Is the Congregation Really Satisfied? Even with a clear path of service and "growth" laid out for the congregation, things were not well under the surface. Â Our church decided to take part in Willow Creek's Reveal Survey (http://www.christiancoachingcenter.org/index.php/russ-rainey/coachingchurch2/). Â To make a long story short, the survey revealed that, while our congregation contained a high percentage of "spiritually mature" Christians, they didn't feel like their local church was central to their growth. Â The results showed that the most spiritually mature Christians were bearing the load of their own growth apart from the church. Â Instead of seeker friendly messages, they wanted meatier talks with more substance and more education opportunities. Â Instead of changing their vision to accommodate the congregation, church leaders threw out the results because they "didn't like the way the survey questions were phrased." Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to say that leadership principles and tactics are bad or unimportant - I think that, in the hands of a disciple, they can be very powerful. Â As with everything, the intention of the heart is most important. As a former lay pastor, I took pride in running programs with a large volunteer count. Â At the time, I believed that it was a reflection on my good leadership skills. Â During the month, we would have meetings that would discuss the direction a particular ministry was moving in and what we needed to do to recruit more volunteers. Get With the Program Here's how it works: * Church leaders have a vision about the direction the church should be going. Â They start programs to carry out theÂ vision (this is usually announced to the congregation using a Biblical metaphor, words that rhyme, or an acronym). * They need people in the congregation (volunteers) to help carry it out. Â Lay pastors are put in charge of training volunteer leaders and to oversee the programs. Â Once in place, the teaching pastors, the church bulletin, and the pre-service slides serve as the marketing materials for theÂ programs - inviting enlistment or "buy-in". * The programs are simultaneouslyÂ used as the medium for working out the vision of the church leaders, and as the sole mechanism for discipleship. Â That is, if a church member were to tell the leadership that they don't feel like they are growing in Christ, the remedies usually offered are 1) Read your Bible more 2) Pray more 3) Volunteer in one of the church programs. * Sunday messages are designedÂ to attract a larger audience to take part in church activities. There's a lot to be said for this method - it is extremely effective. Â But is this what Biblical discipleship looks like? What is Discipleship? To be a disciple is to be a student, just as being a Rabbi is to be a professor. Â I've read more than a few leadership books that lay out Jesus' "leadership techniques" with his disciples. Â But, in the context of the first century, Jesus was not trying to demonstrate leadership techniques with his disciples, the understanding was that he was their teacher and they were his students. Â When the disciples began to follow Jesus,

Why Millennials Are Leaving The Church, Part 2

Brad Gross and Scott Matkovich — Thu, 15 Jan 2015 03:06:34 -0500

"Oh, You Don't Go to Church?" I've been a Christian for almost 20 years. Â For 15 of those years, I went to church. Â Around year 15, I began to ask a lot of questions about why Christians, in general, go to church. Â I didn't realize it at the time, but a lot of people my age were asking those kinds of questions. In my experience, people are still going to church, they just arenâ€™t staying. The reasons are vast and after personally reviewingÂ hundreds of reasons (http://christianity.about.com/u/ua/churchandcommunity/gotochurch.01.htm), I found this writerâ€™s response to be most typical of why people are leaving the church: Christian? No, a Follower of Jesus I just donâ€™t get the point of going to church, other than to show face in a building so other people can confirm that you are there and a good person. I can tell God wherever I am that I am thankful for all he has done for me. I recently started going again with my Mom and Step Dad, I love them with all of my heart and donâ€™t think they are at all unintelligent, but when my Step Dad starts telling me I need to start tithing to see the Lordâ€™s blessings and that I have to end my prayers a specific way or else they donâ€™t get to God, thatâ€™s when Iâ€™m out. I donâ€™t think that is God, thatâ€™s brainwashing. I want to do what is right, I want people to come to have a relationship with God on their own accord, not by force. I think my friend put it best, â€˜When people ask if I am a christian, I say â€œNo, Iâ€™m a follower of Jesus and his teachings.â€ â€”Guest Brad 3 Reasons I Donâ€™t Go to Church: â€œI Donâ€™t Get Anything Out ofÂ Going to Church" One big complaint I heard from the congregation at my church was that they â€œdidnâ€™t get anything out of the Sunday services.â€ They stopped going altogether and instead would justÂ go to their Sunday school groups where the teaching was more personal and deeper than a typical seeker service. The irony is that churches often build their Sunday message around being relevant, applicable, and memorable. When I was in seminary, there were entire courses that taught students how to deliver a memorable message. Yet, by Wednesday or Thursday many Sunday morning attenders cannot recall what the three main points of the message were. If they cannot remember the points of the message, they probably arenâ€™t practicing them in their real lives. After becoming frustrated at their own lack of growth, people leave the Sunday morning services knowing that it wonâ€™t help them much in their real lives. â€œThe Pastor Doesnâ€™t Answer the â€˜Howâ€™ Question.â€ One of the reasons people donâ€™t practice what they are taught is because they donâ€™t know what to do. On Sunday mornings, we often hear that we need to become Christ-like, Spirit led, and so forth. However,Â howÂ we become Christ-like is very often missing from the sermon. Â Usually pastors tell you to "read your Bible more and pray more" (Translation: try harder). Â But that assumes your not really trying that hard! Â It's the underlying passive-aggressive message that you're the problem, not the ministry or lack of teaching. We gather together with the hopes of seeing God in our midst. And, this happens when all of us are centered around Christ and take on his nature in our lives. Sadly, many people donâ€™t know what they can do to become Christ-like. Pastors tell them to just keep â€œtrying really hardâ€, â€œwait for Godâ€ and somehow it will happen, but it doesnâ€™t. They get worn out, frustrated, and leave. In church, we are given spiritual â€œtipsâ€ toward the spiritual life, but the techniques are either weak or missing altogether. â€œI Donâ€™tÂ NeedÂ to Go to Church.â€ Iâ€™ve heard this conversation, or something like it, a thousand times: 30-Something: So, why should I go to church? Pastor: Itâ€™s important that you experience the word of God with other Bible believing Christians. 30-Something: But, I talk about God and the Bible with my Christian friends. Is

Why Millennials Are Leaving the Church Part 1

Brad Gross and Scott Matkovich — Sat, 10 Jan 2015 12:00:32 -0500

"The Missing Generation" A few years ago, when I was working at a church, I began to notice something about the demographics of our church - nothing terribly scientific, but more as an observer. When I went to church on Sundays, taught in Sunday school, went to the main service, I noticed that people my age werenâ€™t there. Â We went to a large church that had 6 weekend services, so I figuredÂ that people my age were probably just attending a different service; maybe a "hipper" service that had younger speakers, louder music, and didn't care about tattoos. Â Standing in the middle of a Sunday morning service, I remember joking with my wife thatÂ "Weâ€™re the youngest ones here!â€ We laughed it off. But, it turns out this was happening at a lot of churches. Â As the trend continues, it has become clear that churchesÂ are having a hard time reaching millennials. The Numbers Don't Lie Behind the scenes, we had a database with the names of everyone who signed the â€œfriendship padâ€ that was passed down the pew each Sunday. From that, the church collected names, ages, etc. to get a big view of who was attending and various reports would be used based on those numbers. One Monday, I decided to talk with my supervisor about this. â€œIs there a way we can calculate what the average age of our church is?â€ I asked. He went to work and a few hours later came back and said, â€œ43!â€ "Forty-three isnâ€™t bad, right?" I said. â€œNo, itâ€™s pretty good - I found out that the average age of members at Willow Creek is over 50.â€ he said. The Aging Church Of course, thereâ€™s nothing wrong with having a â€œmatureâ€ church - and we would all probably agree that the wisdom that comes with age is indispensable. Rather, the immediate concern surrounds the question, â€œWhere are all the young people?â€ After talkingÂ with some friends who attended the church, friends of friends, and anyone under the age of 40 that had time to chat the consensus was that many young people loved the idea of going to a small group or Sunday School but said that they "didnâ€™t get anything out of big churchâ€. Meaning, the sermons preached on Sundays weren't particularly helpful - at least not enough to make a special trip. What the younger people in our church liked were the smaller groups with teaching that was deeper than what was being offered at big church. They also really liked the fact that they could ask questions of the teacher - something, I feel, is missing from most churches today. Previously, Iâ€™ve written that I think the order of church service should be a lot like the order of service in the 1st century temple. You go to the service because of the wisdom of the teacher who is there. You listen to what the teacher says and then you can ask questions of the Rabbi. What Millennials Want From Church Analysis of these trends could go in a thousand directions. If I might be so bold, the way I would sum it up is: MillennialsÂ donâ€™t want their parentâ€™s church. Â We are simply at a time where the assumption that church should look a certain way is being questioned. It became too big and is now failing. How would you define what the Millennials want from church?

Christian Harry Potter

Brad Gross and Scott Matkovich — Mon, 05 Jan 2015 00:26:04 -0500

Thanks everyone for stopping by and listening to our episode on the Christian Harry Potter. If you're not sure what this is, the Christian Harry Potter is a re-write that a mother did of the Harry Potter stories so that her kids would have a less "witchy" or "satanic" version of the famed fiction.

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Bradâ€™s Dating Experiment, Part 3: Wrapping It All Up

Brad Gross and Scott Matkovich — Sat, 20 Dec 2014 12:59:57 -0500

I learned a lot from this experiment and a lot of it was good. Some of it was bad, a decent amount of it was funny, but a lot of it was good. First, the bad. The worst part of online dating as a culture, is that is commoditizes dating. By that, I mean, online dating sites have created an Amazon.com dating culture. You log in, check off all the things you like, and then go "shopping". You look at tons of pictures and make a choice based on that.

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What Ferguson Reveals About the Human Heart

Brad Gross and Scott Matkovich — Fri, 12 Dec 2014 18:38:54 -0500

If I had to guess which event will define the social landscape of 2014, it would be the killing of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri. When I first heard of the riots, my first inclination was to chalk it up to another typical gloom and doom news story that would go away in a day or two.

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The Rise and Fall of Mark Driscoll

Brad Gross and Scott Matkovich — Tue, 02 Dec 2014 16:23:58 -0500

With preaching as prolific as it is provocative, no one in recent evangelical culture has been (arguably) more divisive as Mark Driscoll has become.

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