Gospel Tangents Podcast

Native American Seer Stones & Hats (Thomas Murphy 2 of 4)

Rick B — Thu, 10 Sep 2026 07:40:51 -0400

Did Native Americans use seer stones? What if the roots of the Book of Mormon’s narrative trace back not just to revelation, but to a classroom?

Book of Mormon Ties to Darmouth?

In this second part of our conversation with anthropologist Dr. Thomas Murphy, we explore a detail of Smith family history that rarely gets discussed: Hyrum Smith’s education at Dartmouth’s Moor’s Indian Charity School, where he studied alongside Haudenosaunee students. It’s a small historical fact with potentially large implications for how we understand the origins of the Book of Mormon.

https://youtu.be/9nNErpiSeb8

Don’t miss our other conversations with Thomas: https://gospeltangents.com/people/thomas-murphy/

Gospel Tangents

Check out a transcript of the interview on Amazon.

Shared Classroom, A Shared World

Moor’s Charity School was founded with the explicit purpose of educating Native American students alongside colonial settlers. Hyrum Smith — Joseph Smith’s own brother — sat in classrooms with Haudenosaunee (Iroquois) peers! This raises a compelling question: how much of the cultural and spiritual knowledge exchanged in that setting might have made its way, directly or indirectly, into the Smith family’s later religious project? Murphy doesn’t claim to have all the answers, but he makes a compelling case that this connection deserves far more attention than it has historically received.

Seer Stones and the Zelph Story

Zelph was a supposed ancient warrior whose bones Joseph Smith claimed to have identified during Zion’s Camp. Murphy examines whether these practices and stories reflect genuine Native American spiritual traditions, Mormon religious innovation, or some blend of both — a question that sits at the heart of his broader research.

This is part 2 of our multi-part conversation with Dr. Thomas Murphy on his book Unsettling Scripture: Iroquois and the Book of Mormon. Subscribe to Gospel Tangents to follow the rest of the series, where we’ll explore Onondaga and Oneida connections, the ethics of Book of Mormon archaeology, and the long-running Heartland versus Mesoamerica debate.

Gospel Tangents is dedicated to exploring Mormon history, science, and theology through in-depth conversations with scholars, historians, and researchers.

Chapters

0:00 Dartmouth / Moor’s Indian Charity School Connection 4:00 Cultural Context, Not Plagiarism 9:27 Susquehanna Valley & Indigenous Prophetic Movements 12:20 Seer Stone Divination & Haudenosaunee Parallels 15:58 Catalyst Theory 18:38 Handsome Lake as Parallel Scripture

Don’t miss our other conversations with Thomas: https://gospeltangents.com/people/thomas-murphy/

Gospel Tangents

Check out a transcript of the interview on Amazon.

Book of Mormon’s Hidden Connection to Native Americans (Thomas Murphy 1 of 4)

Rick B — Mon, 07 Sep 2026 16:41:56 -0400

Can rigorous DNA research and religious scripture coexist? Years ago, Murphy’s groundbreaking DNA research directly challenged traditional Book of Mormon claims about Native American origins. It was a stance that put him at odds with his own stake president and nearly cost him his membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. For many in the Mormon studies world, Murphy’s name has been synonymous with that controversy ever since.

Now, Murphy returns to Gospel Tangents with something new: his first full-length book, Unsettling Scripture: Iroquois and the Book of Mormon. And this time, the conversation isn’t just about DNA — it’s about history hiding in plain sight.

https://youtu.be/NYOCqWRKC6w

Don’t miss our other conversations with Thomas: https://gospeltangents.com/people/thomas-murphy/

Gospel Tangents

Check out a transcript of the interview on Amazon.

Book of Mormon Connection Few Have Considered

Murphy’s central argument in this episode is striking: the Smith family had real, documented contact with Haudenosaunee (Iroquois) communities living near Palmyra, New York, in the years leading up to the Book of Mormon’s publication. Rather than treating the Book of Mormon’s narrative as emerging in a vacuum, Murphy asks what it means that Joseph Smith grew up in close proximity to a living, sophisticated Native nation with its own oral traditions, history, and worldview. It’s a question that doesn’t get asked nearly often enough in Mormon history circles — and Murphy brings decades of anthropological training to bear on it.

Why This Conversation Matters

Whether your interest lies in:

Mormon history and the origins of the Book of Mormon
DNA and genealogy research as it intersects with religious claims
Native American history, specifically Haudenosaunee/Iroquois communities
Or the broader question of how faith and scholarship can coexist

— this conversation offers a rare perspective from someone who has spent his career at the intersection of all three.

Chapters

0:00 Thomas’s Background in Indigenous Studies/DNA 3:29 DNA Research Impact 8:10 FARMS/FAIR attacks, taking a break from Mormon studies 12:02 Unsettling Scripture Overview 16:31 Parallels between Book of Mormon and Haudenosaunee narratives

Watch or Listen to the Full Conversation

This is the first of four segments in our conversation with Dr. Thomas Murphy. Subscribe to Gospel Tangents to catch the rest of the series, where we’ll dig into topics ranging from seer stone divination to the ongoing Heartland versus Mesoamerica geography debate. Or you can get the whole episode at Patreon.com/gospeltangents

Unsettling Scripture: Iroquois and the Book of Mormon by Dr. Thomas Murphy is available now.

Don’t miss our other conversations with Thomas: https://gospeltangents.com/people/thomas-murphy/

Gospel Tangents

Check out a transcript of the interview on Amazon.

Remembering David Nielsen (Full Interview)

Rick B — Thu, 27 Aug 2026 01:22:54 -0400

David Nielsen passed away a couple of weeks ago when he fell off a ladder. His death was a very sad surprise. He leaves behind 3 wives, a wonderful family, and a shocked and saddened community of friends. We’re remembering him in this video. He served as an apostle for the Nielsen-Naylor Group. In this 2025 interview, he gives an introduction to this Mormon fundamentalist group.

https://youtu.be/vaglaO6_lFk

David Nielsen

David Nielsen was an apostle for his church.

CHAPTERS 0:00 FLDS Splits 7:35 One Man Rule 21:03 Changing Succession 24:37 Council of Friends/High Council 30:05 More than One True Church/Priesthood 32:34 Young Men Ordination/Missions 39:48 Women Propose Marriage 56:52 Mission to FLDS? 1:01:31 Rosetti’s Book on Musser 1:05:00 Church Services 1:17:48 Temple/Priesthood Theology 1:37:32 Black Ban in Nielsen-Naylor 1:45:55 Black History of Priesthood 2:04:55 Consecration 2:13:49 Going on a Tangent

Don’t miss our other interviews with David: https://gospeltangents.com/people/david-nielsen/

Non-LDS Temple Q&A (Rick B 4 of 4)

Rick B — Sun, 23 Aug 2026 20:13:10 -0400

In this engaging temple Q&A session, host Rick Bennett fields questions from a Community of Christ group following a presentation on restoration temples inside and outside the LDS Church. The discussion spans a wide range of captivating topics in Mormon history, theology, and architecture:

https://youtu.be/vn7odpxo7Kc

Don’t miss our other conversations on temples: https://gospeltangents.com/mormon_history/lds-temples/

Gospel Tangents

What you will discover in this presentation:

Temple Q&A: Mormon Pentecostalism & Speaking in Tongues

The group discusses how early Latter-day Saints in Kirtland rolled on the ground like “holy rollers” and how Mormon Pentecostalism actually predates modern Pentecostalism by about 70 years. They examine how the Book of Mormon’s unique doctrinal connection between the baptism of fire and “speaking in the tongues of angels” laid this early groundwork.

LDS Fundamentalism & Temple Practices:

The discussion explores why fundamentalist Mormon offshoots (like the Remnant Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or the Neielson Naylor group) are often seen as having preserved original Nauvoo temple components more closely than the mainstream LDS Church has.

Stonehenge as a Jaredite Temple?:

In a fascinating segment on international restoration branches, Bennett shares the beliefs of Philip Gill’s group in England, which claims Stonehenge was actually built by Jaredites who traveled through Russia. The group also discusses temple traditions in Mexican and Brazilian restoration offshoots.

Nemenha Records & Heavenly Mother:

The Q&A highlights a highly obscure set of records from Manti, Utah, known as the “Mantino archives” or “Nemenha record” translated by Philip Landis. The records contain an entire temple endowment ceremony that is almost identical to the LDS ceremony, with one major twist: it refers to a Heavenly Mother.

Where Does God Dwell?:

Members debate whether physical structures or individual human bodies are the true temples. Drawing from the Book of Mormon’s teaching that the Lord “dwelleth not in unholy temples” but in the hearts of the righteous, they discuss the personal spiritual temple versus the physical buildings that eventually “get torn down”.

Future of Kirtland & Salt Lake Temples:

Bennett answers questions regarding the LDS Church’s purchase of the Kirtland Temple and the 15-year agreement to keep it as-is. He also expresses deep heartbreak over the seismic upgrades of the Salt Lake Temple, where historic pioneer murals were gutted so the structure could be placed on ball bearings and reinforced with steel rods.

Chapters

0:00 Introduction/Welcome 0:41 Community of Christ Temple Clarification (1984-1994 timeline) 2:08 Glossolalia & Speaking in Tongues in Kirtland 5:09 Fundamentalist Mormons & Nauvoo Temple Understanding 6:05 Remnant Church of Jesus Christ Discussion 9:02 International Mormonism & Temple Traditions 17:52 Nemenha Group / Manti Archives 19:58 RLDS Auditorium Temple Question 23:17 Emma Smith & Baptism for Health 23:56 Hagoth & Polynesian Temples 25:04 Kirtland Temple Future & LDS Church Plans 29:26 Structural Issues of Historic Temples (Ogden, Provo) 32:47 Kirtland Temple Restoration Discussion 35:57 Manti Temple & Recent Renovations 37:30 Cardston Temple

Don’t miss our other conversations on temples: https://gospeltangents.com/mormon_history/lds-temples/

Gospel Tangents

What you will discover in this presentation:

Virtual, Vodou, and Fundy Temples (Rick B 3 of 4)

Rick B — Sun, 16 Aug 2026 20:09:57 -0400

We’re taking a deep dive into Virtual, Vodou, and Fundy Temples. It’s a fascinating look at secret and highly controversial world of divergent temples and modern groups of the Restoration. Following the assassination of Joseph Smith, the temple liturgy fractured like a prism, scattering the sacred rites of the Restoration in vastly different directions.

https://youtu.be/L6vQWsbxxaE

Don’t miss our other conversations on temples: https://gospeltangents.com/mormon_history/lds-temples/

Gospel Tangents

What you will discover in this presentation:

Lost Rites of Mormonism:

Discover early temple ordinances that the mainstream LDS Church left behind, including the Law of Adoption (sealing members to prominent church leaders rather than biological parents), baptisms for health (ritual immersion for physical healing), and the controversial Oath of Vengeance.

The 1978 Breaking Point: Understand how early 20th-century alterations to the endowment and the 1978 revelation lifting the racial ban on Black members became the “last straw” for fundamentalists, who believed mainstream temples were defiled and set out to build their own sacred spaces.

Inside Secret Sanctuaries of Fundy Temples:

Go behind the scenes of Warren Jeffs’ isolated YFZ Ranch in Eldorado, Texas, and the dramatic 2008 paramilitary raid sparked by a hoax call. Plus, hear about an exclusive interview conducted inside the temple of Christ’s Church (the Righteous Branch) in Nevada, where they still practice the multi-hour 1877 St. George endowment and perform second anointings.

Decentralized and Progressive Temples:

Explore Missouri Independents who reject the traditional fundamentalist racial ban to allow Black members to receive full temple ordinances, and the progressive Church of Jesus Christ in Christian Fellowship (CJCCF) & Reform Mormons. Both churches conduct virtual temple worship over Zoom using “home temples” and ordain women to the priesthood.

Mormonism Meets Haitian Vodou: Learn how Haitian Latter-day Saints engage in “bricolage,” beautifully blending Mormon temple theology about the thin veil between the living and the dead with indigenous Vodou ancestral veneration.

Join us as we explore how nearly two centuries of history have led diverse branches of the Restoration to continuously adapt Joseph Smith’s most sacred ordinances to forge their own unique connections with the Divine!

0:00 Discontinued Temple Rites 4:03 Racial Apostasy 4:37 FLDS Temple 6:39 Christ’s Church Temples 10:49 Baptism for Health 12:49 Missouri Independent Temple 16:53 Women’s Authority, 20:17 Internet Temples 22:36 Haitians Adapting Mormon Temples

Don’t miss our other conversations on temples: https://gospeltangents.com/mormon_history/lds-temples/

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RLDS & Bickertonite Views About Temples

Rick B — Tue, 11 Aug 2026 10:15:11 -0400

What happened to the Latter Day Saint movement after it fractured? We discuss the fascination history on RLDS & Bickertonite views about temples. While Brigham Young led his followers West to build physical temples in Utah, multiple restoration branches took a completely different path—formally rejecting Nauvoo theology, secret endowments, and polygamy

https://youtu.be/-tjIZUJcOqo

Don’t miss our other conversations on temples: https://gospeltangents.com/mormon_history/lds-temples/

Gospel Tangents

We dive into the fascinating, competitive, and highly diverse world of non-LDS temples. Discover how the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (now Community of Christ) built the massive Auditorium in Independence, Missouri—which historian John Hamer argues was secretly designed as a Kirtland-style temple—before dedicating their famous spiral temple in 1984 under Wallace B. Smith. We also explore: RLDS & Bickertonite Views About Temples

The Battle for the Temple Lot: How Granville Hedrick’s followers returned to Jackson County in 1867 and purchased the original plot where 24 temples were once planned.
The Great Depression’s Forgotten Temple: Why Otto Fetting’s attempt to construct a Greek-style temple on the Temple Lot in the 1930s left a massive excavation hole—and why former President Harry Truman asked to have it filled in.
The Bickertonite Chasm: Why William Bickerton abandoned Brigham Young’s church after polygamy was announced in 1852, choosing to reject physical temples entirely while embracing radical inclusivity—including ordaining deaconesses in the 1860s and calling an African-American apostle.
Tongues and the “Smith Corpus”: A fascinating discussion on why groups that rejected Joseph Smith’s later revelations (like the Doctrine and Covenants) successfully preserved early Kirtland Pentecostal gifts like speaking in tongues, while the mainstream LDS Church largely phased them out.

Tune in for an incredible journey through the fractured history and competing temple visions of the Restoration! Support the show at patreon.com/gospeltangents to hear the entire uncut conversation!

Gospel Tangents

Embracing Nauvoo: Wild World of non-LDS Temples (Rick B 1 of 4)

Rick B — Fri, 07 Aug 2026 07:40:59 -0400

Many people think there aren’t non-LDS temples, but that’s not true. When Joseph Smith was assassinated in 1844, the restoration did not just fracture geographically—it shattered the unified theology of the temple. While the LDS Church went on to build a massive global network of private temples, several other branches of the restoration developed highly unique, surprising, and divergent temple traditions of their own.

https://youtu.be/AiIf0-7mOIE

Don’t miss our other conversations on temples: https://gospeltangents.com/mormon_history/lds-temples/

In this presentation to the Book of Mormon Perspectives Forum, Gospel Tangents host Rick Bennett explores the fascinating history of “Divergent Temples” across different restoration groups:

The Wightites (Texas): Led by Apostle Lyman Wight, this group built the first temple west of the Mississippi in Zodiac, Texas, in 1849—nearly 30 years before the St. George Utah Temple. Shockingly, Wight’s temple endowments were completely open to the public. To secretly practice polygamy, women in the group used their maiden names on both the census and during proxy baptisms to avoid government detection.
The Strangites (Wisconsin & Michigan): Led by James Strang, who claimed an angel ordained him as Joseph’s successor on the day of the martyrdom. Strang established the “Order of the Illuminati,” which featured mysterious, phosphorus-anointed initiations that culminated in Strang being crowned as the “king in Zion.”
The Cutlerites (Missouri): Founded by Alpheus Cutler, the seventh member of Joseph Smith’s original Quorum of the Anointed. Today, a dwindling number of Cutlerites in Independence, Missouri, still perform temple work on the private second floor of their building. Scholars believe their endowment ceremony is the most unchanged version since the 1840s. However, to distance themselves from polygamy, they reject sealings for the dead while continuing to perform sealings for the living.

Whether you are interested in historical mysteries, theological evolutions, or the Masonic roots of early endowment dramas, this episode offers an eye-opening look at how different restoration groups have sought to build holiness to the Lord. 00:00 Introduction 04:13 Nauvoo Temple Origins 12:14 Groups That Kept Nauvoo-Style Temples

First Lady of Fundamentalism (Anne Wilde 2017 interview)

Rick B — Mon, 27 Jul 2026 07:40:15 -0400

Back in 2017, I sat down with Anne Wilde, one of the foremost experts on modern-day polygamy. While I like to call her the First Lady of Fundamentalism, she has lived an incredibly unique life as an Independent Fundamentalist. For 33 years, Anne lived as the secret second wife of Ogden Kraut, a prolific fundamentalist author whose 65 books she personally helped write and edit. From the secret history of Mormon schisms to her own spiritual journey, you won’t want to miss this fascinating conversation!

https://youtu.be/LH2zMt27kxM

Don’t miss our other conversations Shannon: https://gospeltangents.com/people/shannon-flynn

Gospel Tangents

Check out a transcript of the interview on Amazon.

Pick up a transcript of our conversation!

Raised in the mainstream LDS Church, Anne later became an “Independent Fundamentalist” and lived for 33 years as the secret second wife of prolific fundamentalist author Ogden Kraut. This sweeping conversation covers everything from the hidden history of Mormon schisms to controversial theology and modern civil rights. Hidden History of Post-Manifesto Polygamy Many believe plural marriage ended abruptly with the LDS Church’s 1890 Manifesto, but Anne explains it was more like a sunset: “when does it get dark? It’s just gradually.” She points to an uncanonized 1886 revelation received by Church President John Taylor, which fundamentalists believe declared plural marriage an everlasting covenant that could not be changed. Consequently, polygamy continued underground and in places like Mexico and Canada. It took the 1904 Second Manifesto and the 1933 Third Manifesto—which enforced excommunication for those practicing plural marriage—to create a permanent rift between the mainstream church and fundamentalist groups. Untangling the Polygamous Sects One of Anne’s main goals is to dispel the myth that all polygamists are the same. She breaks down the diverse landscape of modern polygamy:

The AUB (Apostolic United Brethren): With about 7,500 members, this group has a priesthood council and allows members more free agency in choosing their spouses. (Kody Brown of the TV show Sister Wives comes from this tradition.)
FLDS (Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints): Notorious for the extreme one-man rule of Warren Jeffs, this group practices arranged marriages and strict dress codes. Anne notes that Jeffs’ oppressive control and habit of splitting up families has caused their numbers to plummet. Since he went to prison, the numbers are about 10% of what they were.
Centennial Park: A breakaway group of about 2,000 members who separated from the FLDS because they wanted a priesthood council rather than a one-man dictatorship.
Ervil LeBaron: Anne also discusses dangerous outliers like Ervil LeBaron, a militant polygamist who claimed his own priesthood authority and became an assassin responsible for roughly 20 deaths, including that of AUB leader Rulon Allred.
Independent Fundamentalists: Anne identifies with this category—believers who adhere to early doctrines and plural marriage but choose not to affiliate with any centralized sect.

Surprising Stances on Gay Marriage Despite their conservative theology, Anne reveals that many fundamentalists support the legalization of gay marriage. Viewing it through the lens of civil rights, she argues that if polygamists want the government to decriminalize their own family structures, they must grant the same free agency to the LGBTQ+ community. She also expressed deep disappointment with the LDS Church’s 2015 policy that temporarily barred the children of gay parents from being baptized, feeling it wrongly punished children. Anne Wilde’s Controversial Theology: Was Jesus a Polygamist? Anne Wilde and her late husband, Ogden Kraut, authored numerous books, including a highly popular 1969 text arguing that Jesus Christ was a polygamist. She suggests that the wedding feast at Cana was actually Christ’s own wedding, and that he was married to at least Mary, Martha, and Mary Magdalene. She also tackles difficult aspects of Doctrine and Covenants Section 132, such as the “Law of Sarah,” which ideally requires a first wife’s consent for subsequent marriages. However, Anne notes that if a first wife adamantly refuses to consent to a priesthood law, the husband is exempt from her approval and can marry anyway. Furthermore, she interprets the scriptural mentions of “concubines” not as sex slaves, but as lesser, non-covenant wives permitted by the customs of the era. Advocacy and the 2002 Olympics After living in secret for decades, Anne stepped into the public eye ahead of the 2002 Salt Lake City Olympics. Tired of seeing only bitter ex-members defining the narrative around plural marriage, Anne co-founded an advocacy group called “Principle Voices“. During the Olympics, they provided hundreds of press packets and fielded interviews with global media to offer a positive perspective on the lifestyle and to clearly distinguish themselves from the abuses of the FLDS church. Ultimately, Anne’s story is a call for understanding. Whether you agree with her lifestyle or not, her experiences provide a rare, inside look at a marginalized community deeply woven into the fabric of Mormon history. Questions to ponder: 1. In what ways do the civil rights struggles of polygamists align with those of the LGBTQ+ community? 2. Why is it important to recognize the structural and cultural differences between various polygamous sects? 3. How does the “Law of Sarah” impact the balance of agency and power within a plural marriage? 4. What role does media representation play in shaping the narrative of marginalized or secretive religious communities? Don’t miss our other conversations Shannon: https://gospeltangents.com/people/shannon-flynn

Gospel Tangents

Check out a transcript of the interview on Amazon.

Shannon Flynn Describes Working with Forger/Bomber Mark Hofmann

Rick B — Tue, 21 Jul 2026 07:40:39 -0400

Shannon Flynn was a former close associate of the notorious Mormon forger and bomber, Mark Hofmann. Recorded before Flynn’s 2021 passing, this conversation provides a chilling, up-close look at Hofmann’s methods, his personality, and the desperate unraveling that led to two murders. We’ll get up close and personal and discuss this crazy chapter of Mormon History. https://youtu.be/9QcITtuSxLo Don’t miss our other conversations Shannon: https://gospeltangents.com/people/shannon-flynn

Gospel Tangents

Check out a transcript of the interview on Amazon.

Mark Hofmann’s Beginnings

The Origins of a Forger (Early Life & Coins): Hofmann’s life of deception began long before he forged church documents; he started electroplating fake mint marks onto coins at just 12 years old. Flynn reveals that Mark Hofmann successfully fooled experts for years, though a simple block of dry ice would cause the forged mint marks to flake right off.
Fabricating Provenance (The “Oath of a Freeman”): Flynn details the ingenious ways Mark Hofmann established legitimate backstories for his fake documents. For the highly valuable “Oath of a Freeman,” Hofmann slipped a forged copy into a stack of pamphlets at a massive New York bookstore, took it to the register, and obtained a genuine receipt to prove where he “found” it.
Mastering the Art of Deception (Forgery Techniques): Mark Hofmann’s historical research and chemical techniques were unprecedented. He would steal blank flyleaves from 19th-century books at the University of Utah and BYU so the paper would pass carbon dating. To age the ink instantly, he placed documents in a fish tank with an old electric train motor, using the ozone (O3) to oxidize the ink. This technique eventually led to his downfall, as the rapid drying caused the ink to crack—a telltale sign investigators later used against him.
Beating the Polygraph: Despite murdering two people and fabricating dozens of documents, Mark Hofmann passed a polygraph test with a highly truthful score of +14. Flynn explains that Hofmann had a genius-level IQ of 137 and used intense self-hypnosis and biofeedback—skills he learned from a hypnotist at age 13—to suppress his physical stress responses.
Police Coercion and Flynn’s Arrest: Flynn was briefly caught up in the investigation and was arrested for possessing an unregistered automatic weapon that actually belonged to Hofmann. Flynn vividly recounts how the police lied to the media about finding a “bomb factory” in his storage unit, which initially made Flynn believe that the police were framing Hofmann for the bombings too.
The Murders and Mark Hofmann’s Unraveling: Hofmann operated heavily on a “forgery on demand” basis, constantly producing documents to put out financial fires. The pressure reached a breaking point when a $185,000 bank loan for the nonexistent “McLellin collection” came due. Hofmann built pipe bombs to kill Steve Christensen and Kathy Sheets purely to buy himself time and distract investigators. The third bomb, which injured Hofmann himself, was likely triggered in a moment of desperation as he realized his web of lies had trapped him.
Life in Prison & Church Fallout: Flynn visited Mark Hofmann several times in prison during the early 1990s, noting that Hofmann had fully adapted to convict life and still practiced self-hypnosis daily. Flynn also addresses the faith crises many experienced over the Hofmann saga, arguing that it is unreasonable to leave the LDS Church just because its leaders failed to detect the forgeries, pointing out that general authorities “don’t have magic powers.”

00:00 Introduction 01:39 How Shannon Met Mark 02:32 Mark’s Early Forgery Career – Coins 09:07 Shannon’s Work with Mark 11:33 Oath of a Freeman Forgery 16:57 Mark’s Legitimate Collecting & Financial Dealings 20:31 McLellin Collection Scheme & First Interstate Bank Loan 25:12 Mark’s Personality 27:57 Beating the Polygraph 51:49 Shannon’s Arrest & Jail Time 1:02:09 The Bombings – Initial Response 1:32:03 Document Forgery Techniques – Paper & Ink 1:38:04 Advanced Forgery Methods – Oxidation & Cracking 1:23:16 Bombing Motives & Third Bomb 1:11:20 Mark’s Production to Demand Strategy 1:15:45 Impact on LDS Scholarship 1:43:40 Prison Life & Suicide Attempt 1:46:05 Shannon’s Prison Visits & Correspondence 1:57:28 Legal Strategy & Plea Agreement 1:40:03 Parole Hearing & Life Sentence 2:04:30 Closing Thoughts on Church Authority

Don’t miss our other conversations Shannon: https://gospeltangents.com/people/shannon-flynn

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How Wes Walters’ Revival Research Forced Mormon Historians to Confront the 1820 Story (Sandra Tanner 5 of 5)

Rick B — Sat, 11 Jul 2026 19:45:18 -0400

A key figure who accelerated the historical crisis for both the Tanners (who left the group in 1962) and Pauline’s church was Wes Walters, a Presbyterian minister from Marissa, Illinois.

Walters was asked to write an article on Mormons for Christianity Today. His detailed research focused on testing Joseph Smith’s claims against tangible historical records, particularly those surrounding the First Vision. Walters reasoned that while you couldn’t prove whether Smith spoke to God, you could prove whether he was standing in a given place on a given day.

https://youtu.be/ifGZ-3IrGPQ

Don’t miss our other conversations with Sandra: https://gospeltangents.com/people/sandra-tanner

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Walters used his expertise in church history (specifically Baptist, Methodist, and Presbyterian records in the New York area) to investigate Joseph Smith’s claim that the First Vision was prompted by an intense local revival where ministers were fighting over converts.

Walters’ findings: the great revival and the subsequent fighting over converts among the denominations did not happen in 1820. Instead, significant church growth (hundreds of converts) occurred between 1823, 1824, and 1825. This discovery forced a complete recalibration of the chronology, as it meant the First Vision and the subsequent Moroni visits leading up to the plates could not logically fit the existing timeline.

Walters’ small pamphlet, New Light on Mormon Origins, caused such a disruption that it “threw the Mormon Church into a tizzy,” forcing LDS historians to travel back East to conduct their own major studies. Walters is credited by Sandra Tanner as being a key factor in pushing the LDS Church into serious historical scholarship.

Magic Connection: A Bridge Too Far

While Walters’ dating research was shocking, his discovery of the 1826 trial documents cemented the crisis.

Pauline’s group, following David Whitmer, already accepted the story that Joseph Smith used a “rock” in his “hat” to translate the Book of Mormon, aligning with the “seer stone” narrative. However, the 1826 trial confirmed Joseph Smith’s involvement in money digging, associating the seer stone with divination and magic practices—the occult that the Christians in Pauline’s group firmly rejected.

The group found this connection irreconcilable:

They questioned why God would use an instrument associated with magic.
They noted that Joseph Smith seemed to bypass the instruments God allegedly supplied (the plates) and continued using the same rock used in divination.
The transition from seeking treasure (magic) to seeking revelation (religion) looked too “fishy,” suggesting it was merely a “switching of what you’re using this stone for”.
The fact that the same individuals involved in drawing magic circles and searching for treasure were the same first converts to Mormonism was deeply troubling.

Pauline Hancock’s Church Voted to Disband

The Church of Christ (Bible Book of Mormon), founded and led by Pauline Hancock, emerged as a unique splinter group focused on returning to what they believed was “1830 Mormonism”—a faith centered purely on the Bible and the Book of Mormon, devoid of later revelations (like the Doctrine and Covenants past 1830) and “Aaronic, Melchizedek Priesthood ideas”.

However, this small community, known for meeting in the “Basement church” in Independence, ultimately discovered that even their foundational scripture, the Book of Mormon, could not withstand intense historical scrutiny, leading to its dissolution years after Pauline Hancock’s death in 1962.

The Vote & Dissolution

Faced with this overwhelming historical evidence, the Church of Christ had to make a choice regarding their “litmus test”—the Book of Mormon.

In 1972, approximately a decade after Pauline’s death (she died in the summer of 1962), the church took a formal vote on whether to retain the Book of Mormon as scripture.

The majority voted no, choosing to jettison the Book of Mormon.

The consequences were immediate:

Families who wanted to retain the Book of Mormon left and joined other smaller splinter groups, such as the Hedrickites.
The remaining members decided they would continue to meet as Christians studying only the Bible.
After a few more years, however, they concluded that since they were just Bible-believing Christians, they no longer had a purpose to stand independently from the rest of the Christian world. They decided to disband, sell the building, and disperse into various Christian churches.

The building, which had been the “Basement church,” was eventually purchased by another restoration group. Olive Wilcox, who led the group after Pauline, stated that she believed Pauline herself, had she lived to see the comprehensive research done by Walters, would also have chosen to give up the Book of Mormon.

What are your thoughts?

Don’t miss our other conversations with Sandra: https://gospeltangents.com/people/sandra-tanner

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Was Hugh Nibley Wrong about Zion? (Nathan Oman 5 of 5)

Rick B — Wed, 08 Jul 2026 07:40:49 -0400

Was Hugh Nibley wrong? Is global capitalism compatible with a Zion society? And when is a Latter-day Saint actually justified in defying a corrupt, oppressive government?

https://youtu.be/IWZgHZT5Q9w

Don’t miss our other conversations Nathan: https://gospeltangents.com/people/nathan-oman

Gospel Tangents

Hugh Nibley was wrong?

First, Professor Oman challenges the popular anti-capitalist teachings of the legendary LDS scholar Hugh Nibley. While Nibley viewed commerce as being driven primarily by greed and pride, Oman argues for the 18th-century ideal of doux commerce (“sweet commerce”). He explains how the necessity of trade actually forces us to consider the needs of others and argues that markets have done more to alleviate global poverty than any other economic system. While acknowledging that the modern global economic order is not Zion, Oman points out that early Mormon revelations—such as those concerning the for-profit Nauvoo House—prove that commerce and markets will absolutely be a part of a Zion society. Then, the conversation pivots to the agonizing moral paradox of civil disobedience and the 12th Article of Faith.

Civil Disobedience

Using the tragic story of Helmuth Hübener—a young Latter-day Saint who was excommunicated and executed by the Gestapo for distributing anti-Nazi pamphlets—Oman explores why the Church historically demands strict legal obedience to survive under hostile regimes. From the East German Stasi to Pinochet’s Chile, we explore the dangerous tightrope the Church must walk. Does strict obedience to the law risk moral complicity with dictators, or is it a necessary safeguard to protect a vulnerable church from being entirely suppressed? Oman argues that there are no easy answers when balancing the dangers of institutional complicity against the naive, potentially destructive consequences of grand individual defiance.

Be sure to check out Professor Nathan Oman’s extensive work on these topics in his two-volume set, Law and the Restoration, as well as his newest book from Oxford University Press, Living Oracles!

CHAPTERS

0:00 Taking on Hugh Nibley

9:13 Civil Disobedience (Hubener)

Don’t miss our other conversations Nathan: https://gospeltangents.com/people/nathan-oman

Gospel Tangents

How Old RLDS Polygamy Arguments Became New Again (Rick B)

Rick B — Mon, 06 Jul 2026 02:07:47 -0400

Have you wondered what’s behind the energy in the polygamy revisionist movement? Are these the same as RLDS polygamy arguments? Back in 2010, Newell Bringhurst wrote a chapter in “Persistence of Polygamy” on the evolution of RLDS thinking on Joseph Smith’s polygamy, how it got forgotten, and recycled among a new generation of LDS members who weren’t aware of the previous history.

https://youtu.be/wD-ZHracUnA

Are the modern arguments that Joseph Smith was a strict monogamist actually new? In this deep dive, we explore the “layered archive” of historical claims surrounding Joseph Smith’s polygamy, revealing that many of today’s “polygamy revisionist” arguments are actually recycled 19th-century RLDS positions.

The presentation breaks down the 150-year evolution of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (now Community of Christ) through four distinct phases:

The Early Concessions (1852–1860): Contrary to popular belief, early leaders like William Marks and Isaac Sheen did not initially deny Joseph Smith’s involvement. Instead, they claimed he had been involved in “spiritual wifery” but recognized his error and repented shortly before his death in Carthage.

The Era of Absolute Denial (1860–1960): Under the leadership of Joseph Smith III, the strategy shifted toward establishing the absolute innocence of the founding prophet. This century-long “institutional mandate” framed D&C 132 as a “Brighamite forgery” and placed the blame for polygamy entirely on Brigham Young.

The Academic Shockwave (1960s–1980s): The “dam broke” when mid-century historians like Robert Flanders and Lawrence Foster published research that eroded the bedrock of the church’s denial. This led to a painful institutional reckoning, eventually forcing the church to acknowledge Joseph Smith’s foundational role in plural marriage.

The Modern Revisionist Resurgence: Today, a new wave of LDS members—facing their own faith crises—are adopting these older RLDS arguments to resolve cognitive dissonance regarding the prophet’s moral legacy.

Drawing on works like Newell Bringhurst’s The Persistence of Polygamy and Robert Flanders’ Nauvoo: Kingdom on the Mississippi, this presentation weighs revisionist claims against the preponderance of contemporaneous evidence. We also discuss the psychological toll of these shifting narratives and the ongoing battle to control the legacy of Joseph Smith.

RLDS Polygamy Arguments

Chapters 0:00 Introduction and the RLDS Foundation 07:53 Anatomy of a Narrative Shift 08:19 The Bedrock: 1852 to 1960 12:30 Early Concessions 16:42 Joseph Smith III and the Strategy Shift 21:09 D&C 132: Brighamite Forgery? 27:35 Historical Reckoning (1960s to Present) 51:12 Modern Skeptic Movement 1:26:44 Three Paradigms of Polygamy 1:29:17 Conclusion: The Enduring Battle for Legacy

When Personal Conscience Clashes with LDS Church Doctrine (Nathan Oman 4 of 5)

Rick B — Sat, 04 Jul 2026 21:45:10 -0400

What do you do when your personal conscience clashes with official LDS Church positions? Why did the LDS Church transition from the fiery, anti-communist speeches of Ezra Taft Benson in the 1960s to the strict political neutrality we see today?

https://youtu.be/cDExXX00Y0o

Oman is the author of 2 volumes of Law and the Restoration Volume 1 and Volume 2, from Greg Kofford Books.

Don’t miss our other conversations Nathan: https://gospeltangents.com/people/nathan-oman

Gospel Tangents

In this episode of Gospel Tangents, I sat down with Nathan Oman, law professor and author of Law and the Restoration, to explore the fascinating evolution of Mormon political theology and the realities of modern Church discipline.

We dive into the Church’s shift toward “quietism”—a strategy of withdrawing from global political conflict to focus on personal righteousness and international missionary work. Discover why praise for the U.S. Constitution has largely vanished from General Conference, replaced by an emphasis on the 12th Article of Faith and being an unthreatening, law-abiding citizen in international environments.

Personal Conscience

The conversation also tackles the complex tension between personal conscience and institutional authority. Oman explains the “epistemic advantage” of church doctrine and shares practical, ethical advice on how faithful members can navigate deep personal disagreements with the Church without undermining its global mission. Finally, we pull back the curtain on LDS Church discipline. While liberal intellectuals and internet critics dominate the media headlines, Oman reveals a surprising historical truth: the modern concept of apostasy was primarily developed for, and is overwhelmingly used against, polygamist fundamentalists.

In this video, we cover: The legacy of Ezra Taft Benson’s Cold War apocalypticism. Why the Church avoids taking stances on hot-button political issues like immigration. The “epistemic advantage” of obedience and trusting Church doctrine. How to ethically handle personal disagreements with Church leaders without being insubordinate. The truth about who actually gets excommunicated for apostasy. ???? Guest: Nathan Oman, law professor at William & Mary and author of Law and the Restoration. ???? Want the full, uncut conversation? Sign up at patreon.com/gospeltangents to hear this entire interview without interruptions and to support the Gospel Tangents podcast network!

Oman is the author of 2 volumes of Law and the Restoration Volume 1 and Volume 2, from Greg Kofford Books.

CHAPTERS

0:00 Taking on Hugh Nibley 9:13 Civil Disobedience (Hubener)

Don’t miss our other conversations Nathan: https://gospeltangents.com/people/nathan-oman

Gospel Tangents

1879 Court Case That Forced the LDS Church to End Polygamy (Nathan Oman 3 of 5)

Rick B — Wed, 01 Jul 2026 07:40:33 -0400

What case helped end polygamy in the LDS Church? What do a 19th-century Mormon polygamist, reality TV star Kody Brown, and the Native American religious use of peyote all have in common?

https://youtu.be/r32GTYt0N5g

Don’t miss our other conversations Nathan: https://gospeltangents.com/people/nathan-oman

Gospel Tangents

How Did LDS Church end polygamy?

In this fascinating episode of Gospel Tangents, host Rick Bennett sits down with Nathan Oman, law professor and author of Law and the Restoration, to unpack one of the most consequential Supreme Court cases in American history: the 1879 Reynolds v. United States decision. Oman is the author of 2 volumes of Law and the Restoration Volume 1 and Volume 2, from Greg Kofford Books.

We explore how this landmark ruling was the “big bang” that launched the federal government’s legal crusade against the Latter-day Saints, systematically crushing their legal options and ultimately forcing the 1890 Manifesto that ended plural marriage. But the impact of Reynolds didn’t stop in Utah!

Discover the shocking history of how the Reynolds decision was later used during the Spanish-American War to legally justify American imperialism, denying full constitutional rights to “conquered” peoples in the Philippines and Puerto Rico by comparing them to “barbaric” polygamist Mormons.

We also jump forward in time to discuss Sister Wives star Kody Brown’s famous lawsuit. Find out why his lower-court victory decriminalizing polygamy was thrown out by the 10th Circuit Court, and why modern prosecutors deliberately avoid bringing pure polygamy charges today just to keep the Supreme Court from having to officially answer if polygamy is actually unconstitutional. Finally, we dive into the unexpected crossover between Mormon polygamy and the Native American Church’s sacramental use of peyote.

In this video, we cover:

The 1879 Reynolds v. United States test case and its impact on the First Amendment.
How the federal legal crusade forced the LDS Church to issue the 1890 Manifesto.
How Mormon polygamy was used to justify denying constitutional rights in Puerto Rico and the Philippines.
Why Kody Brown’s legal victory to decriminalize polygamy was vacated.
Why the modern Supreme Court secretly avoids ruling on the constitutionality of polygamy.
The surprising link between the Reynolds decision and the 1990 peyote Supreme Court case written by Justice Antonin Scalia

???? Guest: Nathan Oman, law professor at William & Mary and author of Law and the Restoration. ???? Want the full, uncut conversation? Sign up at patreon.com/gospeltangents to hear this entire interview without interruptions and to support the Gospel Tangents podcast network!

Chapters

0:00 Federal Prosecution of Polygamy in Utah 14:46 Kody Brown Polygamy Case 21:09 Is Peyote Affected by Reynolds Polygamy Case?

Don’t miss our other conversations Nathan: https://gospeltangents.com/people/nathan-oman

Gospel Tangents

Prophets, Polygamy, & Politics: Explosive Reasons Joseph Smith Killed (Nathan Oman 2 of 5)

Rick B — Sun, 28 Jun 2026 22:46:15 -0400

Why was Joseph Smith killed? Did early Mormons try to start their own independent country? And did you know 19th-century Mormon bishops literally served as civil judges?

In this episode of Gospel Tangents, host Rick Bennett sits down with Nathan Oman, law professor and author of Law and the Restoration, to uncover some of the most explosive and fascinating legal history of the Latter-day Saints. We dive deep into the unique world of 19th-century Mormon church courts, where bishops bypassed the traditional secular systems to build a harmonious Zion. Discover how these bishops handled financial disputes, strictly enforcing contracts for those who could pay, while actually helping poor and vulnerable members pay off their debts based on a highly “moralized vision” of equality. We also look into Joseph Smith and Brigham Young’s efforts to repay creditors following the Kirtland banking failure.

The episode also cracks open the secrets of the Council of 50. Learn about their aborted attempt to write an inspired constitution for the Kingdom of God—drafted by John Taylor, Parley P. Pratt, and Willard Richards—which was ultimately abandoned because it lacked the necessary legal detail to function. Oman explains the Council’s radical political maneuvers to move the Saints beyond U.S. borders into the Far West to carve out an independent nation, much like what had just happened in Texas. Finally, we explore the explosive “witch’s brew” of 1844 Illinois that ultimately led to Joseph Smith’s murder. Why was Joseph Smith killed? Why did the Nauvoo Expositor paint him as a “tyrant in waiting”?

Learn how critics used centuries-old Protestant tropes, which naturally linked claiming to be a prophet with Anabaptist history, polygamy, and sexual licentiousness, to create a recognizable villain out of Joseph Smith. In this video, we cover: Mormon Bishops acting as literal civil judges in monetary disputes. How church courts forgave debts and handled secular bankruptcies. The aftermath of the Kirtland Safety Society failure. The Council of 50’s secret, unfinished Constitution. Mormon plans to build an independent country outside U.S. borders. The Nauvoo Expositor, polygamy, and the political fears that got Joseph Smith killed.

Oman is the author of 2 volumes of Law and the Restoration Volume 1 and Volume 2, from Greg Kofford Books.

CHAPTERS

0:00 Bishops Legal Courts 5:11 Joseph Tried to Pay Kirtland Bank Debts 7:29 Council of 50 Constitution 10:58 Joseph’s Crown Leads to Expositor Death

Don’t miss our other conversations Nathan: https://gospeltangents.com/people/nathan-oman

Gospel Tangents

Is Dallin Oaks a Legal Apologist? (Nathan Oman 1 of 5)

Rick B — Wed, 24 Jun 2026 07:40:03 -0400

Some call new LDS Prophet Dallin Oaks a prophet, seer, and litigator. We’ll see what Nathan Oman thinks of Dallin Oaks. Nathan is a legal historian at William and Mary University. He discusses how law has affected Latter-day Saints over the past 2 centuries. We’ll discuss Dallin Oaks perspectives on Joseph Smith’s martyrdom and polygamy up to modern polygamy cases, politics, and LGBT issues. Oman is the author of 2 volumes of Law and the Restoration Volume 1 and Volume 2, from Greg Kofford Books. Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/FcHDLy8_PRI

Don’t miss our other conversations Nathan: https://gospeltangents.com/people/nathan-oman

Gospel Tangents

CHAPTERS 0:00 Meet Nathan Oman – Law Prof William & Mary 4:11 Destroying the Expositor Press Was Legal? 9:55 Is Oaks an Apologist? 13:46 Oaks & LGBT Legal Fights

Was the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor actually a violation of the First Amendment? And who are the top three most influential lawyers in Latter-day Saint history? In this episode of Gospel Tangents, host Rick Bennett sits down with Nathan Oman, law professor at William & Mary and author of Law and the Restoration, to dive deep into the fascinating world of Mormon legal history. Dallin Oaks Shapes Legal History We tackle one of the most controversial moments in Church history: the suppression of the Nauvoo Expositor. Oman breaks down how a young Dallin H. Oaks famously defended the legality of Joseph Smith’s actions, revealing why our modern understanding of free speech and the First Amendment simply didn’t apply to state governments in 1844. The conversation also explores the evolution of Latter-day Saint legal scholarship. Oman explains his “three generations” of legal history, showing how scholars transitioned from simply using legal records to tell historical stories, to defensive apologetics, and finally to using the Mormon legal experience as a lens to understand broader American law. Finally, we look at President Dallin H. Oaks’s enduring legacy. Discover how his early work on the Carthage Conspiracy paved the way for modern scholarship, how his current role in the First Presidency drives the Church’s aggressive push for religious freedom globally, and find out why the forgotten Franklin S. Richards makes Oman’s list of the top three most influential lawyers in Mormon history. In this video, we cover:

Why suppressing the Nauvoo Expositor wouldn’t have violated American law in the 1840s.
The anachronism of applying the First Amendment to Joseph Smith’s actions.
The “three generations” of Mormon legal history and apologetics.
How Dallin H. Oaks uses legal history today as a tool to advocate for religious freedom.
The top three most influential lawyers in Latter-day Saint history (including the unsung hero of the anti-polygamy battles!).

???? Guest: Nathan Oman, law professor at William & Mary and author of Law and the Restoration. ???? Want the full, uncut conversation? Sign up at patreon.com/gospeltangents to hear this entire interview without interruptions and to support the Gospel Tangents podcast network!

Priesthood Restriction, Revelation, & Restoration

Rick B — Mon, 22 Jun 2026 00:59:13 -0400

Priesthood Restoration, Priesthood Restriction, and Revelation June was the month of the priesthood restoration, priesthood restriction, and revelation in LDS Church history. It serves as a month of profound historical significance for Latter-day Saints, marking both the commemoration of the priesthood restoration and the anniversary of the 1978 revelation ending the priesthood and temple ban. Rick Bennett of Gospel Tangents explores the complex history of how priesthood authority was first established and how it evolved over nearly two centuries. https://youtu.be/Tkc1j6r23s0 Don’t miss our other conversations on LDS Faith Journeys: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9pQpKe9CEk&list=PLLhI8GMw9sJ7WQNTJCyCO3U5D2fn7d0JF

Gospel Tangents

Restoration Shrouded in Mystery While the restoration of the Aaronic Priesthood has a clear date—May 15, 1829—the restoration of the Melchizedek Priesthood is far more mysterious. Historians have identified three primary hypotheses for when this authority was conferred by Peter, James, and John:

June 1829: The traditional narrative, though it lacks contemporary evidence.
July 1830: An account involving a nighttime escape from persecution between Colesville and Harmony.
June 1831: Records from a special church conference suggest the high priesthood was manifested and conferred “for the first time” over a year after the Church was organized.

This presentation relies heavily on Michael Quinn‘s research in his book Origins of Power.

Forgotten Black Pioneers Contrary to popular belief, the early Church under Joseph Smith featured a “flat” authority structure where Black men were ordained to the priesthood. Pioneers like Elijah Abel, a faithful member of the Seventy, and Joseph Ball, who served as a branch president in 1844, prove that the “one-drop rule” did not exist in the Church’s earliest days. These men served missions and received temple ordinances decades before the restriction was codified. 1852 Pivot The priesthood ban was not a founding tenet but a mid-19th-century shift. In 1852, amid a legislative struggle in the Utah Territory regarding slavery, Brigham Young declared that “a man who has the African blood in him cannot hold one jot nor tit of priesthood.” This declaration marked the formal beginning of a century of restriction, often justified by theories—now officially disavowed—such as the “Curse of Cain” or the idea that Black members were “less valiant” in the premortal life. Brazil Temple: A Tipping Point The path to the 1978 revelation (Official Declaration 2) was heavily influenced by the Church’s global expansion. The construction of the Sao Paulo Brazil Temple in 1975 created a “dilemma”: faithful Black and mixed-race members were funding and building a temple they would be barred from entering. This reality, combined with years of prayerful supplication by President Spencer W. Kimball, led to the “hallowed and sanctified” moment in the Salt Lake Temple that finally extended priesthood and temple blessings to all worthy members. Moving Toward Unity Today, the Church unequivocally condemns all racism and rejects the past explanations used to justify the ban. The goal of the restoration remains one of redemption and connection, inviting all of God’s children—regardless of race or gender—to walk the covenant path together. Rick shares his theory as to why leaders reacted with hostility to interracial marriage as the primary motivation for Brigham Young to implement the ban.

Don’t miss our other conversations on LDS Faith Journeys: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9pQpKe9CEk&list=PLLhI8GMw9sJ7WQNTJCyCO3U5D2fn7d0JF

Gospel Tangents

Inside Remnant Church: From Convert to First Presidency in 5 Years! (Jim Vun Cannon 2017)

Rick B — Fri, 19 Jun 2026 07:40:02 -0400

Here’s a throwback episode with a Counselor in First Presidency of the Remnant Church. Jim Vun Cannon was serving as a counselor in the First Presidency of the Remnant Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints at the time of this 2017 recording.

https://youtu.be/PT0dH-KGfKc

Don’t miss our other conversations on the Remnant Church: https://gospeltangents.com/denominations/remnant-church/

Gospel Tangents

Remnant Church

If you aren’t familiar with this branch of the restoration, the Remnant Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was formed around the year 2000 by former members of the RLDS Church (now Community of Christ). These members were sifting through the ashes of what felt like a “civil war” following controversial doctrinal shifts, specifically the pivotal 1984 revelation that allowed women to hold the priesthood. In this comprehensive interview, we cover a lot of ground. We discuss Jim’s fascinating journey of joining the Remnant Church in 2012 and being called to the First Presidency just five years later.

We also dive deep into the church’s unique theology, including their ongoing efforts to literally build the city of Zion in Jackson County, Missouri, how they interpret the Law of Consecration and the Order of Enoch today, and their strict belief that Joseph Smith was a monogamist. We also tackle tough questions surrounding DNA and the Book of Mormon and why they believe women will never hold the priesthood.

Now, I want to point out an important update to our viewer. Jim Vun Cannon is no longer in the First Presidency of the Remnant Church. Since this recording, he actually broke off to form a new group called the Everlasting Church of Jesus Christ in the Latter-day & is the president of that church. Keep that fascinating update in mind as you listen to his perspectives from his time in the Remnant Church leadership. Let’s dive into the full interview!

Don’t miss our other conversations on the Remnant Church: https://gospeltangents.com/denominations/remnant-church/

Gospel Tangents

0:00 Intro/Background 5:11 Church Formation and History 10:08 Succession Crisis and Early Church History 17:01 Priesthood Structure and Organization 22:27 Church Size and Geographic Distribution 29:47 Doctrine and Covenants Discussion 42:23 Gathering to Zion and Consecration 50:50 Joseph Smith and Polygamy Debate 1:05:40 Book of Mormon Geography and Historicity 1:13:38 Personal Background and Church Experience 1:18:19 Worship Services and Youth Programs 1:24:06 Women and Priesthood Position 1:32:52 LGBTQ+ Policies 1:33:54 Temple Doctrine and Practices 1:39:32 Priesthood Age and Missionary Work

Community of Christ, Book of Mormon, & Future (Stassi Cramm 4 of 4)

Rick B — Tue, 16 Jun 2026 07:30:23 -0400

Community of Christ (CoC) President Stassi Cramm, the church’s first female prophet, addressed pointed questions regarding the role of the Book of Mormon, the pursuit of consensus and faithful disagreement, her prophetic vision for the church, and the ongoing debate over infant baptism.

https://youtu.be/CwCLTiGcHrM

Don’t miss our other conversations with Stassi: https://gospeltangents.com/people/stassi-cramm/

Gospel Tangents

Book of Mormon: Upholding Scripture

President Cramm emphatically denied the accusation that the Community of Christ is “moving away from the Book of Mormon.”

Key points regarding the Book of Mormon’s status include:

Official Position: The church’s belief statement upholds the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants as two additional books of scripture supporting the testimony of the Bible. Cramm noted that eliminating the Book of Mormon from scripture would require rewriting this belief statement, which is not currently on the World Church Leadership Council’s docket.
Non-Creedal Approach: The perception that the Book of Mormon plays a smaller role stems from the CoC being non-creedal; they do not require members to use specific scriptures when preaching or teaching. Therefore, some congregations in the United States may never use the Book of Mormon.
Historicity: The Community of Christ has not taken an absolute stance on the historicity of the Book of Mormon. Cramm suggested this lack of a firm requirement—unlike some who view belief in the Book of Mormon’s specific historical origins as a “test of faith”—is what causes the perception that the church has “pulled away from it.”
Translation Challenges: The CoC’s version of the Book of Mormon (chaptered and versed differently than the LDS version) is not available in French and Spanish. Cramm noted that French might be the dominant language spoken globally in Community of Christ on any given Sunday morning, meaning large segments of the church lack easy access to it. This unavailability was a factor cited in the defeat of a prior resolution to put the Book of Mormon online, primarily due to significant cost associated with translation and formatting.

Cramm emphasized that regardless of historical origins, the Book of Mormon contains important gospel lessons and “long-term stories” demonstrating the continuous cycle of reaching peace only to fall apart due to human tendencies like greed and power.

Navigating Baptism and Sacramental Practice

The discussion shifted to the contentious issue of baptism. The Community of Christ practices believer’s baptism for those 8 years or older. Historically, they accept baptism from other denominations only if the person was 8 or older when baptized.

Infant Baptism Proposal: Multiple resolutions have come forward asking the President to give prayerful consideration to accepting infant baptism from other denominations for membership, followed by confirmation.
Divisive Issue: This issue elicits very strong feelings. While many members, particularly in Europe where infant baptism is common, wish to avoid re-baptism after joining from another denomination, lifelong members argue that the Doctrine and Covenants mandates the age-eight requirement.
Current Action: President Cramm confirmed that the church is currently engaged in an exploration process using reading material and an online survey to gather perspectives before the Presidency makes a determination.

Leadership, Consensus, & Prophetic Voice

Cramm shared her perspective on her new leadership role, which she entered at an older age than some predecessors.

Role as Prophet: Cramm views her tenure as standing in a “liminal space” to help the church navigate current hurdles and prepare emerging leaders.
Empowerment: Her emphasis is on the empowerment of the prophetic voice of the people. Leaders are committed to engaging the imagination of the whole church on important theological questions.
Faithful Disagreement: Cramm agreed that the divisiveness following the 1984 priesthood revelation—which saw congregations leave and property debates ensue—led the church to focus on achieving greater consensus and creating a culture of faithful disagreement. This means that the process under which the church explores and grows together is considered as important as the actual decision itself.

When facing disagreements—such as those surrounding the acceptance of women in the priesthood or current theological issues—the principles of faithful disagreement ensure that people with differing opinions are not judged as unfaithful or immediately ostracized. Instead, they must cultivate Christlike love, which is a choice that requires respecting an opposing opinion even if it is not shared.

Don’t miss our other conversations with Stassi: https://gospeltangents.com/people/stassi-cramm/

Gospel Tangents

Why Conversations with Church Leaders Go Wrong (Jeff Strong 4 of 4)

Rick B — Sat, 13 Jun 2026 07:40:04 -0400

Why do conversations with Church leaders go wrong so often?

Why do conversations with Church leaders go wrong so often? Former mission president Jeff Strong says talking to leaders and parents is one of the least helpful things to do in a faith crisis. It’s 4.5 times worse than talking with siblings. Why do some family members quit speaking to those who leave? Should Church leaders better model Christian disagreement? Can a bottom up movement like this succeed in a top-down organization? Check out our conversation…

https://youtu.be/Y9pQpKe9CEk

Don’t miss our other conversations Jeff: https://gospeltangents.com/people/jeff-strong

Gospel Tangents

Jeff Strong, author of Torn, dives deep into the data surrounding how church members and leaders handle disaffiliation. The conversation shifts from personal narrative to the practical—and often surprising—realities of how we communicate within the faith.

Staggering Cost of “Correction”

Strong shares a provocative statistic from his research: while 83% of those in a faith transition reach out to someone, the outcome varies wildly depending on who they talk to. Interactions with siblings and friends generally go well, but conversations with devout church leaders are four and a half times more likely to “go badly,” meaning the relationship suffers and the individual feels more inclined to withdraw from the community. Strong attributes this to a default mode of trying to “correct or contain” the person rather than building trust.

Agency vs. Stewardship

A major theme of this discussion is the “goofy cultural idea” of practicing “enforced agency.” Strong argues that when parents or leaders attempt to manipulate outcomes—such as withholding an inheritance or cutting off family members to maintain a temple recommend—they are actually infringing on the foundational doctrine of agency. He reminds listeners that stewardship does not equal control, citing Joseph Smith’s experience with the lost 116 pages as a lesson that God’s work is not dependent on our ability to control others.

Bottom-Up Revolution

Addressing the concern that change in the Church is strictly “top-down,” Strong offers a empowering alternative: bottom-up culture change. While he avoids criticizing the institution or “steadying the ark” by telling Salt Lake what to do, he insists that individuals have the power to shape the culture within their own hearts, marriages, and wards. He notes that even one “Christ-centered” Bishop can completely transform a ward’s atmosphere in a short time.

The Path Forward: Love Over Fear

Strong concludes by urging members to stop “thinking through the amygdala”. When we act out of fear—the “circle the wagons” behavior—it shuts down spiritual growth. By choosing “perfect love” over fear, families can maintain strong relationships even when religious paths diverge. His ultimate goal is not to “recruit” people back, but to help the Church become a place where different types of people can stay, feel they belong, and remain rooted in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

0:00 Why Conversations with Church Leaders Go Wrong 6:44 Cutting Off Family over Faith? 9:08 Can Bottom Up Influence Top Down? 23:24 Should Church Leaders Model Better?

Don’t miss our other conversations Jeff: https://gospeltangents.com/people/jeff-strong

Gospel Tangents