For Jonathan, the arrival of ChatGPT was not the beginning of AI. It was the moment when decades of largely invisible development suddenly became visible to everyone. He sees enormous potential in what comes next, from advances in medicine and education to safer transportation and greater access to knowledge. But he is equally clear that the technology we have today remains imperfect, and that its rapid advancement is outpacing our ability to fully understand, govern, and use it responsibly.

At the heart of the conversation is a different way of thinking about our relationship with AI. Jonathan prefers augmented intelligence to artificial intelligence: using AI to extend what people can do rather than simply using it to automate work away.

His metaphor is powerful. Make AI the apprentice.

Let it gather information, surface possibilities, summarize data, and offer perspectives you might not have considered. But stay in charge. Understand the context. Question what comes back. Verify the facts. Decide what matters. And take responsibility for the outcome.

Brian and Jonathan also explore what happens when people turn too much of their thinking over to AI. If technology takes on work that once developed analytical ability, writing skills, and leadership capability, organizations have to become more intentional about how those capabilities will be developed. The answer is not to reject AI, but neither is it to unquestioningly accept whatever AI produces.

The conversation closes with another dimension of staying in charge: the data we give AI access to. Jonathan discusses privacy, accuracy, environmental impact, and why those concerns led him to develop KIND, an AI tool designed to work locally with a user’s own data.

AI can do extraordinary things. That does not make it the expert, the decision-maker, or the accountable party. Stay in charge. Make AI the apprentice.

In This Episode

• Why ChatGPT represented a seismic shift after decades of largely invisible AI development
• How augmented intelligence reframes AI as a resource for extending human capability rather than simply replacing work
• Why treating AI as an apprentice keeps context, discernment, decision-making, and responsibility with the human
• How leaders can use AI without allowing important human skills and capabilities to atrophy
• Why accuracy, privacy, data ownership, and environmental impact matter in deciding how and where we use AI

About Jonathan Schaeffer

Jonathan Schaeffer is the inventor of KIND and has been at the forefront of artificial intelligence for more than 40 years. An AI researcher, entrepreneur, and inventor, he has spent his career building practical AI systems designed to solve real problems with greater accuracy, transparency, and trust.

KIND was first conceived in 2017 while Jonathan was teaching full-time and responding to hundreds of student emails. He created an AI system that interacted only with documents he explicitly provided, giving him a way to generate reliable, explainable answers grounded in trusted information. After years of personal use and refinement, that system evolved into KIND, a downloadable desktop application that allows users to curate their own data, interact with it in depth, and uncover insights without sacrificing privacy.

Today, Jonathan is focused on advancing a more trustworthy model for AI that gives users greater control over their information and reduces dependence on opaque, cloud-based systems. Through KIND, he is working to make AI more private, accurate, and useful for individuals and organizations alike.

About Brian Gorman

Brian Gorman is an executive advisor, author, speaker, coach, and host of Beyond AI: Wisdom at Work. He works at the intersection of artificial intelligence and human wisdom, helping CEOs, founders, boards, and senior leadership teams think clearly about AI, change, decision-making, culture, trust, and the future of work. His book, Leading into the Age of Wisdom: Reimagining the Future of Work, explores how leaders can move beyond intelligence alone and bring deeper wisdom to the decisions shaping people, organizations, and society.

To Continue the Conversation

If anything you hear in this podcast sparks a conversation or a question you want to explore, reach out.

Jonathan

Website: https://kind.synsira.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-schaeffer-phd-frsc-aaai-fellow-3318015/

Brian

Email: Brian@TransformingLives.Coach

Phone; +1 917.653.5198

Website: TransformingLives.Coach

In this episode of Beyond AI: Wisdom at Work, Brian Gorman speaks with Dr. Gleb Tsipursky, founder of Disaster Avoidance Experts and author of The Psychology of AI Adoption at Work: From Resistance to Results, about the psychology beneath AI resistance.

Gleb identifies three forces that distinguish AI adoption from more traditional technology change: fear, threats to professional identity, and shame. Employees may fear that using AI means helping train their replacement. They may resist handing over work that has long been part of how they define their professional value. And even those who use AI may hide that use from colleagues, limiting the ability of teams and organizations to learn from one another.

Brian and Gleb explore why successful adoption begins by involving people rather than imposing solutions on them. One practical starting point: use AI first to take away the work people find frustrating, repetitive, or burdensome, not necessarily the work they value and want to keep doing.

As people experience the benefits and organizational norms begin to change, adoption can expand.

The conversation also looks ahead to how roles themselves may evolve. Gleb argues that middle management will remain important, but its work will change as employees increasingly supervise AI agents. Coordination, collaboration, guardrails, and governance become critical leadership responsibilities. And because the technology continues to evolve, continuous learning and unlearning become essential.

Ultimately, AI adoption is not simply about what the technology can do. It is about understanding how people experience the change and creating the conditions in which they can move through it.

In This Episode

• Why fear, professional identity, and shame can drive resistance to AI
• How “shadow AI” can increase individual productivity while limiting organizational learning
• Why involving employees in deciding where AI can help creates stronger buy-in
• How the role of middle managers may shift as people increasingly supervise AI agents
• Why continuous learning, unlearning, and human wisdom become more important as AI capability grows

About Gleb Tsipursky

Dr. Gleb Tsipursky, called the “Office Whisperer” by The New York Times, helps leaders turn AI hype into measurable results as CEO of Disaster Avoidance Experts. He is the author of eight books, including the forthcoming The Psychology of AI Adoption at Work: From Resistance to Results from Georgetown University Press, and his work has appeared in Harvard Business Review, Fortune, Time, Forbes, and The New York Time.

About Brian Gorman

Brian Gorman is an executive advisor, author, speaker, coach, and host of Beyond AI: Wisdom at Work. He works at the intersection of artificial intelligence and human wisdom, helping CEOs, founders, boards, and senior leadership teams think clearly about AI, change, decision-making, culture, trust, and the future of work. His book, Leading into the Age of Wisdom: Reimagining the Future of Work, explores how leaders can move beyond intelligence alone and bring deeper wisdom to the decisions shaping people, organizations, and society.

To Continue the Conversation

If anything you hear in this podcast sparks a conversation you want to have or a question you want to explore, reach out.

Gleb

Email: gleb@disasteravoidanceexperts.com

Phone: +1 614-407-4016

Website: Disaster Avoidance Experts

Brian

Email: Brian@TransformingLives.Coach

Phone; +1 917.653.5198

Website: TransformingLives.Coach

Michael challenges the assumption that the task itself is the profession. In software engineering, writing code has long been central to professional identity. But as AI becomes increasingly capable of writing that code, Michael argues that the opportunity is not simply to produce more, faster. It is to focus more deeply on why the work is being done, the value it creates, and the human beings it ultimately serves.

The conversation also explores Michael’s concept of “talent density”, having sufficient depth across multiple neighboring skills rather than deep expertise in only one. While Michael illustrates the idea through software engineering, its implications reach across the workplace. AI can bring enormous depth to a task very quickly. The human challenge is having enough breadth to understand that depth, connect it to adjacent areas, recognize where it fits, and carry the work from task to meaningful outcome.

As AI takes on more specialized tasks, the ability to work across boundaries rather than remain narrowly defined by a single expertise becomes increasingly important.

Brian and Michael also examine one of the less visible consequences of AI adoption. What happens to human development when machines take over the work through which people once gained experience. Michael’s distinction between the “map” and the “territory” points to what AI cannot provide. It may give us access to enormous amounts of accumulated knowledge, but it has not walked the territory. Wisdom still develops through experience, accountability, reflection, and ownership.

Rather than eliminating opportunities for people early in their careers, Michael argues that leaders need to rethink how those people learn. AI output can become something to examine, challenge, understand, and ultimately take responsibility for, not simply something to accept.

Ultimately, the conversation moves from efficiency to purpose. The question is no longer simply, Can AI do this task? It is: What are people now free, and responsible, to contribute?

In This Episode

• Why AI forces us to separate a profession from the tasks historically associated with it
• Why “talent density”, sufficient depth across multiple adjacent skills,  matters more as AI provides specialized depth on demand
• Why AI amplifies what already exists, including complexity, weak processes, and poor quality
• What organizations risk losing when AI removes the work through which people develop experience and wisdom
• Why understanding, ownership, lived experience, and creating something “lovable” remain distinctly human contributions

About Michael Privat

Michael Privat is a Chief Data and Engineering Officer leading a global team of 500+ engineers. With 25 years in tech, he helps organizations unlock speed, clarity, and accountability. He turns stalled engineering teams into high-performing systems built on ownership, discipline, and modern AI-driven workflows through his “accountable autonomy” model.

About Brian Gorman

Brian Gorman is an executive advisor, author, speaker, coach, and host of Beyond AI: Wisdom at Work. He works at the intersection of artificial intelligence and human wisdom, helping CEOs, founders, boards, and senior leadership teams think clearly about AI, change, decision-making, culture, trust, and the future of work. His book, Leading into the Age of Wisdom: Reimagining the Future of Work, explores how leaders can move beyond intelligence alone and bring deeper wisdom to the decisions shaping people, organizations, and society.

To Continue the Conversation

If anything you hear in this podcast sparks a conversation you want to have or a question you want to explore, reach out.

Michael

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelprivat/

Substack: https://michaelprivat.substack.com/

Brian

Email: Brian@TransformingLives.Coach

Phone; +1 917.653.5198

Website: TransformingLives.Coach

In this episode of Beyond AI: Wisdom at Work, Brian Gorman speaks with Jeff Westphal, author of A Work Life Worth Living and former chairman and CEO of Vertex, about meaning, purpose, and the distinctly human choices that become more important as artificial intelligence grows more powerful.

Jeff describes AI as a force multiplier for intelligence. It can research, analyze, synthesize, and help us make better-informed decisions. But it cannot decide what we should care about, what risks are worth taking, or what purpose all that intelligence should serve.

Their conversation explores what makes work meaningful and why meaning differs from one person—and one stage of life—to another. Jeff shares how his own experiences with mentors, leadership, family, and recovery taught him that wisdom is formed through lived experience and human connection, not analysis alone.

As AI increasingly becomes the smartest presence in the room, the traditional leadership advantage of having the answers begins to disappear. What remains is something more demanding: creating the conditions for people to bring their intelligence and wisdom together, deciding what matters, and resisting the temptation to turn AI into the decision-maker.

Ultimately, the opportunity AI presents may be larger than greater productivity or economic growth. With more intelligence and capability available than ever before, we have an opportunity to ask what kind of work, organizations, and world we actually want to create.

In This Episode

• Why meaningful work is deeply personal and why meaning can change throughout our lives
• Why AI can multiply intelligence but cannot determine what we should care about
• How greater technological capability makes purpose more important, not less
• Why leadership increasingly depends on bringing human wisdom together rather than being the smartest person in the room
• The need to recover our ability to choose what matters instead of allowing institutions, or AI, to choose for us

About Jeff Westphal

In the mid-1990s, Jeff Westphal worked his way up to run his father’s upstart sales tax software business and, over the next two decades, built it into a dominant industry leader with nearly one thousand employees. Under Jeff’s leadership, Vertex became an essential cog in the commerce machine, relied upon by more than ten thousand of the largest companies in the world.

1. In July of 2020, after Jeff’s retirement as CEO in 2017, Vertex went public on the NASDAQ stock exchange and is now valued in the billions. It is a great American success story—but telling that story is not the purpose of this book.
2. Behind this success story is another, more complex story of how a leader found, then lost and found again, meaning in his life and work—and how, by helping his employees create meaning in work as seemingly mean­ingless as sales tax software, he helped his company survive challenges and thrive.

Today, Jeff is a seasoned executive, entrepreneur, philanthropist, corporate culture enthusiast, and conser­vationist. In addition to leading Vertex for two decades, he has founded two new ventures—MeaningSphere® and Mosaic™—as he continues to give back and encourage others to create meaning in their learning and working lives.

About Brian Gorman

Brian Gorman is an executive advisor, author, speaker, coach, and host of Beyond AI: Wisdom at Work. He works at the intersection of artificial intelligence and human wisdom, helping CEOs, founders, boards, and senior leadership teams think clearly about AI, change, decision-making, culture, trust, and the future of work. His book, Leading into the Age of Wisdom: Reimagining the Future of Work, explores how leaders can move beyond intelligence alone and bring deeper wisdom to the decisions shaping people, organizations, and society.

To Continue the Conversation

If anything you hear in this podcast sparks a conversation you want to have or a question you want to explore, reach out.

Jeff Westphal

Website: www.jeffwestphal.org



Brian Gorman

Email: Brian@TransformingLives.Coach

Phone: +1 917.653.5198

Website: https://TransformingLives.Coach

Bo Young Lee, CEO of AI4ALL, joins Brian to explore why the future of AI depends on more than broader access to today’s dominant models. It also requires a wider range of people, cultures, experiences, and worldviews shaping the technology itself. Bo explains how concentrating AI development within a small number of frontier models can embed cultural assumptions into tools used around the world.

The conversation also examines what organizations lose when AI removes the demanding early-career work through which people learn to think critically, recognize patterns, exercise discernment, and eventually become experts. The risk, Bo argues, is not simply a deskilled workforce. It is the emergence of a “never-skilled” society, one in which people are asked to evaluate AI-generated work without having developed the experience needed to judge it.

Brian and Bo also consider what this means for education. When intelligence becomes increasingly accessible through technology, schools and workplaces will need to place greater emphasis on the human capacities that AI cannot supply: emotional intelligence, ethical understanding, critical thinking, communication, synthesis, and wisdom.

Finally, Bo raises a provocative concern about the growing wealth surrounding AI. As technology companies direct more philanthropic funding toward nonprofits and public institutions, whose worldview will that money advance, and how might it shape the conversations society is permitted to have about AI?

In This Episode

• Why the people creating AI should better reflect the people whose lives it affects
• The cultural and business risks of relying on a small number of dominant AI models
• How automating junior-level work may interrupt the development of future experts
• Why AI could create a “never-skilled” society rather than merely deskill workers
• How education must change when intelligence is no longer the primary differentiator

A Question to Carry Forward

As AI makes intelligent output easier to produce, how will we ensure that people still develop the experience, discernment, and wisdom required to recognize whether that output is worth trusting?

About Bo Young Lee

Bo Young Lee 이보영 is a globally recognized Workplace and AI/Tech Ethics, DEI, and ESG executive and widely sought-after public speaker and leadership coach. Bo serves as CEO of AI4ALL, ensuring the next generation of AI leaders represents humanity. Prior to her role at AI4ALL, Bo served as President of Research & Advisory for AnitaB.org, the leading mission-driven organization advancing women and non-binary technologists. Bo also served as Uber Technologies’ first Chief Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion Officer, where she was tasked with leading the total transformation of the company’s culture, values, and equity environment.

Bo is currently pursuing a Master of Studies in AI Ethics and Society at the University of Cambridge/Leverhulme Center for Future Intelligence (UK) and has an MBA with distinction from New York University’s Stern School of Business and a BBA magna cum laude from the University of Michigan’s Ross School of Business.

About Brian Gorman

Brian Gorman is an executive advisor, author, speaker, coach, and host of Beyond AI: Wisdom at Work. He works at the intersection of artificial intelligence and human wisdom, helping CEOs, founders, boards, and senior leadership teams think clearly about AI, change, decision-making, culture, trust, and the future of work. His book, Leading into the Age of Wisdom: Reimagining the Future of Work, explores how leaders can move beyond intelligence alone and bring deeper wisdom to the decisions shaping people, organizations, and society.

To Continue the Conversation

If anything you hear in this podcast sparks a conversation you want to have or a question you want to explore, reach out.

Bo Young Lee

Website: https://ai-4-all.org/

Brian Gorman

Email: Brian@TransformingLives.Coach

Phone: +1 917.653.5198

Website: TransformingLives.Coach

In this episode, Brian Gorman speaks with Cliff Kayser, Chief Learning Officer of Polarity Partnerships, about a challenge that becomes more consequential as AI moves deeper into our organizations: our tendency to treat ongoing tensions as problems that can be solved.

Cliff shares an experience training an AI system to distinguish between problems that require either/or decisions and tensions that require both/and thinking. The AI repeatedly defaulted to treating both/and thinking itself as the solution, revealing what Cliff saw as a deeper bias toward choosing one side over another.

That tendency matters because many of the most important questions surrounding AI cannot be resolved by choosing one side. Leaders need speed and discernment. Efficiency and human development. Technical competence and character. Artificial intelligence and human wisdom.

Brian and Cliff explore what happens when organizations drift too far toward what AI does well while neglecting the human capacities that take more time to develop: trust, collaboration, critical thinking, emotional intelligence, discernment, and wisdom. They also consider what this means for education, entry-level work, professional identity, and the development of future leaders.

The challenge is not to resist AI or simply balance it with humanity. It is to continually ask whether we are gaining the benefits of both and to notice when the speed, convenience, and power of AI begin pulling us somewhere we did not consciously choose to go.

In This Episode

• Why both humans and AI can default toward either/or thinking
• How speed and discernment must work together as AI accelerates decisions
• What organizations risk when efficiency replaces experiences that develop people
• Why human capabilities such as trust, character, critical thinking, and wisdom become more important, not less
• How leaders can recognize and respond to the gradual drift toward overreliance on AI

The Assessments

In the podcast, Cliff mentions two brief assessments. You can download each as a PDF.

• Watchers And Guiders: AI And Humans Yuval Noah Harari recently shared that AI systems have begun calling humans "the Watchers." This piece explores why Watching needs an interdependent partner — Guiding — and what happens when either pole is neglected in our relationship with AI. Includes a quick three-minute diagnostic to see how well you're leveraging Watching AND Guiding in your own life and work.
• The Infinity Machine AND The Human Coach: Demis Hassabis calls AI's expanding capability an "infinity machine." Barry Johnson's infinity loop describes something else entirely — a closed loop tending two poles that never stops needing both. This piece unpacks four tensions leaders are living inside right now (Speed AND Deliberation, Efficiency AND Human Development, Consistency AND Context, Automation AND Human Agency) and what coaches specifically are positioned to do about it. Includes a two-minute assessment for AI Capability AND Human Formation.

About Cliff Keyser

Cliff Kayser, MSOD, MSHR, PCC, is Partner and Chief Learning Officer at Polarity Partnerships, helping leaders worldwide leverage "both/and" thinking via the PACT framework (with Barry Johnson) for 25+ years. He writes Cliff'sNOTES on Substack and built an AI "Chat w/Cliff" tool.

Formerly an OD/coaching leader at The Washington Post and National Cooperative Bank, he's worked across the U.S., Brazil, Egypt, Singapore, Turkey, India, China, and the U.K.; he's adjunct faculty at American University and George Mason, serving government, healthcare, and business clients.

He holds two American University Master's degrees, a Lenoir-Rhyne B.A., an ICF PCC, Georgetown's coaching certificate, co-authored nine chapters of And: Vol. 2 (HRD Press, 2021), won the Gestalt Center's 2021 Lifetime Achievement Award, and founded Kayser Ridge Retreat in West Virginia.

About Brian Gorman

Brian Gorman is an executive advisor, author, speaker, coach, and host of Beyond AI: Wisdom at Work. He works at the intersection of artificial intelligence and human wisdom, helping CEOs, founders, boards, and senior leadership teams think clearly about AI, change, decision-making, culture, trust, and the future of work.

His book, Leading into the Age of Wisdom: Reimagining the Future of Work, explores how leaders can move beyond intelligence alone and bring deeper wisdom to the decisions shaping people, organizations, and society.

To Continue the Conversation

If anything you hear in this podcast sparks a conversation you want to have or a question you want to explore, reach out.

Cliff

Email: cliff@polaritypartnerships.com

Website: www.PolarityPartnerships.com

Substack: https://substack.com/@cliffkayser

LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/ckayser

Brian

Email: Brian@TransformingLives.Coach

Phone: +1 917.653.5198

Website: https://TransformingLives.Coach

In this episode of “Beyond AI: Wisdom at Work”, Brian Gorman speaks with Dima Negodiuk, founder of Negodiuk.ai and a fellow solopreneur, about the opportunities and consequences emerging as AI expands what small businesses can do.

Dima describes how AI allows solopreneurs and midsized companies to handle marketing, sales, customer support, research, and content creation with far fewer people and outside contractors. He shares practical examples, including AI-powered call centers that can operate around the clock in dozens of languages and agents that can help with everyday personal tasks.

The increased capacity comes with a harder truth. When AI enables one person to do the work of many, some of those people are no longer needed. Brian and Dima explore that reality without losing sight of the possibilities AI creates for entrepreneurs who previously lacked the money, staff, or technical resources required to test and pursue new ideas.

They also challenge the assumption that AI automatically means working less. AI can accelerate execution and generate a constant stream of possibilities, but deciding what deserves attention and still requires human discernment. The quality of the result depends not only on the technology, but on the knowledge, critical thinking, and oversight brought to it.

The opportunity is significant. So is the responsibility to use it wisely.

In This Episode

• How AI gives solopreneurs capabilities that once required larger teams
• Why greater productivity does not necessarily mean fewer working hours    
• The workforce consequences of automating marketing, sales, and customer support
• Where critical thinking, discernment, and human oversight remain essential
• Why experimentation, privacy, and security should guide early AI adoption 

About Dima

Dmytro Negodiuk builds AI systems for small and mid-size businesses, and he writes the code himself. He came to New York from Kyiv in 2022, after fourteen years building distribution for consumer-technology brands across more than ten retail chains. He runs Negodiuk.ai, an applied AI practice for owner-operated companies. Every system goes into one of his own businesses first, and the ones that don't pay for themselves get shut down, which is the part owners rarely hear about. Forbes profiled his work in 2026. He reviews for NeurIPS and for a workshop at EMNLP.

 About Brian

Brian Gorman is an executive advisor, author, speaker, coach, and host of Beyond AI: Wisdom at Work. He works at the intersection of artificial intelligence and human wisdom, helping CEOs, founders, boards, and senior leadership teams think clearly about AI, change, decision-making, culture, trust, and the future of work. His book, Leading into the Age of Wisdom: Reimagining the Future of Work, explores how leaders can move beyond intelligence alone and bring deeper wisdom to the decisions shaping people, organizations, and society.

To Continue the Conversation

If anything you hear in this podcast sparks a conversation you want to have or a question you want to explore, reach out.

Dima

Email: Dima@Negodiuk.ai

LinkedIn: Dima Negodiuk

Website: Negodiuk.ai

Brian

Email: Brian@TransformingLives.Coach

Phone: +1 917.653.5198

Website: TransformingLives.Coach

In this candid conversation, Charles Fry, founder and CEO of digital product studio CODE Éxitos, describes what he calls the ”Post-Coding Era”. As AI automates more traditional development work, specialized skills that once provided security and professional identity are becoming increasingly commoditized. For many people, that shift is not theoretical. It represents the loss of roles, careers, and a familiar path forward.

But this is not only a conversation about displacement.

Charles and host Brian Gorman explore the work emerging on the other side: systems thinking, empathy, discernment, mentoring, leadership, and the ability to direct both human teams and AI systems. They consider the rise of the “player-coach,” the future of middle management, and the responsibility leaders carry for integrating technology without treating people as an afterthought.

Charles also shares how CODE Éxitos has moved beyond traditional office structures and 9-to-5 schedules, building a distributed organization around mastery, autonomy, purpose, and “la vida plena,” living a full life.

The future Charles describes is uncertain, and the transition will be painful for many. Yet it also offers the possibility of designing work around distinctly human capabilities rather than preserving structures built for an earlier era.

In This Episode

• Why Charles believes software development has entered a Post-Coding Era
• What happens when deeply developed technical skills become commoditized 
• How systems thinkers and player-coaches may replace some traditional roles 
• Why discernment, empathy, mentoring, and leadership are becoming more important 
• How flexible, distributed work can support both client value and a fuller human life 

About Charles

Charles Fry is the Founder and CEO of CODE Éxitos, a digital product studio building software and hardware products for mid-market and enterprise companies, specializing in cyber-physical systems — where software meets the real world: sensors, IoT, computer vision, and beyond — as well as full-stack web, mobile, cloud, and SaaS development. “We are in the post-coding era. AI has fundamentally changed how software gets built, and most companies haven’t caught up. I’ve spent 25+ years building software companies and teams — and I’m focused on helping organizations navigate this shift.”

About Brian

Brian Gorman is an executive advisor, author, speaker, coach, and host of Beyond AI: Wisdom at Work. He works at the intersection of artificial intelligence and human wisdom, helping CEOs, founders, boards, and senior leadership teams think clearly about AI, change, decision-making, culture, trust, and the future of work. His book, Leading into the Age of Wisdom: Reimagining the Future of Work, explores how leaders can move beyond intelligence alone and bring deeper wisdom to the decisions shaping people, organizations, and society.

To Continue the Conversation

If anything you hear in this podcast sparks a conversation you want to have or a question you want to explore, reach out.

Charles

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/charles-c-fry/

Email: charles.fry@codexitos.com

Company website: www.codexitos.com

Brian

Email: Brian@TransformingLives.Coach

Phone: +1 917.653.5198

Website: TransformingLives.Coach

Most organizations are looking at AI through the lens of efficiency. They are asking what can be done faster, cheaper, and with less effort. Those questions matter. But they are incomplete.

Work has never been only about output. It has also been one of the primary ways people develop judgment, confidence, accountability, client awareness, resilience, pattern recognition, and wisdom. Much of what looks like routine or entry-level work is also formative work. It is where people learn what matters, how to revise, how to notice what is missing, and how decisions affect real people.

As AI takes on more research, drafting, analysis, summaries, recommendations, and client preparation, leaders need to ask what human development may be lost if those tasks disappear too quickly, and what can they do to limit those loses. The risk is not simply that AI will automate work. The deeper risk is that organizations may weaken the learning architecture that prepares people for future responsibility.

This episode looks at the choices leaders are making now and how quickly those choices can become “the way we do it.” It challenges leaders to protect the development of human capability, not by rejecting AI, but by becoming more intentional about what should be automated, what should remain human, and what needs to be redesigned as deliberate apprenticeship.

In This Episode

• Why AI is changing not only work, but how people learn through work
• How routine and entry-level tasks often serve as formative experiences
• Why today’s AI choices can quickly become tomorrow’s operating norms
• The risk of promoting people who have not been formed by the work
• What leaders can do to protect judgment, accountability, discernment, and wisdom

About Brian

Brian Gorman is an executive advisor, author, speaker, coach, and host of Beyond AI: Wisdom at Work. He works at the intersection of artificial intelligence and human wisdom, helping CEOs, founders, boards, and senior leadership teams think clearly about AI, change, decision-making, culture, trust, and the future of work.

His book, Leading into the Age of Wisdom: Reimagining the Future of Work, explores how leaders can move beyond intelligence alone and bring deeper wisdom to the decisions shaping people, organizations, and society.

Continue the Conversation

If anything you hear in this podcast sparks a conversation you want to have or a question you want to explore, reach out.

Email: Brian@TransformingLives.Coach

Phone: +1 917.653.5198

Website: TransformingLives.Coach

As AI removes many of the external barriers that once limited what people could do — time, money, access, and technical skill — the deeper constraints become more human. The real questions shift toward clarity of purpose, willingness to change, judgment, character, and courage.

Tim and Brian explore why AI may know more, but humans still know best. AI can generate ideas, automate routine tasks, and accelerate execution. But leaders still have to decide what matters, what is worth building, where human judgment belongs, and how technology should serve people rather than simply replace effort.

The conversation also moves beyond automation into the creation of new value. From coaching applications to examples of workforce reinvention, Tim points toward a future in which technical capability alone is not enough. Curiosity, adaptability, ownership, wisdom, and resilience become essential leadership capacities.

In This Episode

• Why AI shifts the bottleneck from external limits to internal human capacity
• Tim Harrison’s POWER framework: Purpose, Ownership, Wisdom, Execution, and Resilience
• Why “it knows more, and you know best” is a critical leadership distinction
• How AI lowers the bar for effort while raising the bar for human capability
• The opportunity to use AI for new value creation, not just automation

About Tim Harrison

Tim Harrison is the founder and CEO of the Coaching Innovation Lab, where he helps leaders, coaches, and organizations use artificial intelligence effectively, authentically, and responsibly. An applied AI expert and leadership coach, Tim focuses on helping professionals expand their time, impact, and business results without losing the human connection that makes coaching and leadership meaningful.

Grounded in the belief that technology should supercharge people rather than replace them, Tim brings a practical, human-centered approach to AI adoption. Through the Coaching Innovation Lab, he helps leaders and coaches use AI to save time, scale impact, and create new value while maintaining authenticity, trust, and meaningful human connection. Tim serves on the AI Coaching Coalition of North America and is a founding member of the ICF Global Taskforce for AI in Coaching.

About Brian Gorman

Brian Gorman is an executive advisor, author, speaker, coach, and host of Beyond AI: Wisdom at Work. He works at the intersection of artificial intelligence and human wisdom, helping CEOs, founders, boards, and senior leadership teams think clearly about AI, change, decision-making, culture, trust, and the future of work.

His book, Leading into the Age of Wisdom: Reimagining the Future of Work, explores how leaders can move beyond intelligence alone and bring deeper wisdom to the decisions shaping people, organizations, and society.

To Continue the Conversation

If something from this episode sparks a new idea, challenges your thinking, or inspires a conversation, reach out.

LinkedIn: CoachTimHarrison

Website: CoachingInnovationLab.com

Email: Brian@TransformingLives.Coach

Phone: +1 917.653.5198

Website: TransformingLives.Coach

In this episode, Brian Gorman speaks with Sue Bethanis, founder of Mariposa Leadership, about what it takes to lead wisely as organizations, teams, and knowledge workers learn to partner with AI.

Sue brings a grounded, deeply human perspective to the conversation. She frames AI not as something to resist or blindly embrace, but as a “robot” partner that requires human leadership, discernment, and oversight. As she puts it, the human still belongs at the front of the tandem bike.

Brian and Sue explore Sue’s framework for AI adoption: role, mindset, and practices. Leaders need to see themselves as change agents, expect and embrace change rather than simply endure it, and increase empathy and inspiration in their day-to-day leadership.

This conversation goes beyond traditional change management. Brian raises the often-overlooked role of grief in change, especially when people must let go of tools, skills, identities, or ways of working that once defined their value. Together, Brian and Sue examine why AI change cannot be managed as a one-time journey from here to there. This is ongoing, uncertain, and deeply human work.

This episode is for leaders, coaches, consultants, and knowledge workers who are asking how to become more AI-capable without rushing people, diminishing trust, or treating human beings as obstacles to efficiency.

In this episode:

• Why AI adoption should be led as human-centered change
• What it means for leaders to act as change agents and wayfinders in an AI environment
• Why empathy, experimentation, trust, and practice matter more than forced compliance
• How to help people move through resistance, grief, letting go, and unlearning
• Why the human must remain at the front of the tandem bike

About Sue Bethanis

Susan J. Bethanis, Ed.D., is the CEO and Founder of Mariposa Leadership, Inc., a San Francisco-based executive coaching firm where she and her 15-person team have spent 30 years helping high-tech leaders raise their game. Sue is the author of Leadership Chronicles of a Corporate Sage (Kaplan Publishing, 2004) and hosts WiseTalk, a monthly leadership podcast, and WiseSpace, a Zoom coaching community.

Having guided leaders through the dot-com crash, the Great Recession, and the COVID pivot to hybrid work, Sue now helps executives navigate the AI economy through keynotes, strategy offsites, and one-on-one coaching. Recent clients include C-level executives and VPs at Amazon, Databricks, Intel, Intuit, Microsoft, MongoDB, PayPal, and Zynga.

Sue holds an Ed.D. from the University of San Francisco and an M.A. from Stanford University. She lives in San Francisco and Kihei, Maui.

About Brian Gorman

Brian Gorman is an executive advisor, author, speaker, coach, and host of Beyond AI: Wisdom at Work. He works at the intersection of artificial intelligence and human wisdom, helping CEOs, founders, boards, and senior leadership teams think clearly about AI, change, decision-making, culture, trust, and the future of work.

His book, Leading into the Age of Wisdom: Reimagining the Future of Work, explores how leaders can move beyond intelligence alone and bring deeper wisdom to the decisions shaping people, organizations, and society.

Continue the Conversation

If anything you hear in this podcast sparks a conversation you want to have or a question you want to explore, reach out.

Email: sueb@mariposaleadership.com

Website: www.mariposaleadership.com 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/suebethanis/

Email: Brian@TransformingLives.Coach

Phone: +1 917.653.5198

Website: TransformingLives.Coach

In this inaugural episode of Beyond AI: Wisdom at Work, Brian Gorman is joined by Bill Kirst, change architect and author of Leading Change in the Era of AI. Together, they explore why traditional change management models are no longer enough in a workplace increasingly shaped by AI, automation, agents, and non-linear complexity.

Bill explains why tools like ChatGPT and Claude are not simply faster versions of old technology. They are non-deterministic systems, producing variable responses and completing patterns in ways that can feel intelligent without necessarily carrying understanding, judgment, or wisdom.

The conversation moves from change management into wayfinding: how leaders move when there is no clear map, no stable playbook, and no guarantee that yesterday’s models will fit tomorrow’s work. Bill and Brian also discuss the growing presence of AI agents in organizational life, the possibility of AI appearing on org charts, and the oversight questions that come with tools capable of taking increasingly human-like actions.

At the heart of the episode is a leadership challenge. As AI reshapes decisions, workflows, relationships, and accountability, leaders must strengthen the human capacities technology cannot replace. Intuition. Discernment. Creativity. Emotional intelligence. The ability to notice when something is not right.

Bill also challenges leaders to expand how they learn, recommending science fiction, biography, autobiography, creativity, and playfulness as more useful preparation for the AI era than another stack of traditional business books.

This is a conversation about AI, but it is not a technology conversation. It is about what leaders must unlearn, relearn, and become as change itself changes.

About Bill

Bill Kirst is a Change Architect, 2x author, poet, keynote speaker, developmental editor, and host of the Coffee & Change podcast. He works at the intersection of artificial intelligence, organizational transformation, and human potential, helping leaders and organizations navigate change with greater clarity, curiosity, confidence, and empathy.

His book, Leading Change in the Era of AI, explores how artificial intelligence is reshaping leadership, work, and the human experience. Drawing on more than two decades of leading enterprise transformation, Bill offers a practical and deeply human perspective on helping people adapt, thrive, and lead with purpose in an age of accelerating technological change.

Through his writing, speaking, and conversations with innovators, executives, researchers, and creators, Bill explores one enduring question: How can we ensure AI elevates our humanity rather than diminishes it? His work is guided by a simple belief: the future of leadership will be defined not only by intelligence, but by our capacity for empathy at scale.

About Brian

Brian Gorman is an executive advisor, author, speaker, coach, and host of Beyond AI: Wisdom at Work. He works at the intersection of artificial intelligence and human wisdom, helping CEOs, founders, boards, and senior leadership teams think clearly about AI, change, decision-making, culture, trust, and the future of work.

His book, Leading into the Age of Wisdom: Reimagining the Future of Work, explores how leaders can move beyond intelligence alone and bring deeper wisdom to the decisions shaping people, organizations, and society.

Continue the Conversation with Bill

If something from this episode sparks a new idea, challenges your thinking, or inspires a conversation, Bill would love to hear from you. He's easily reachable on LinkedIn and Substack.

Continue the Conversation with Brian

If anything you hear in this podcast sparks a conversation you want to have or a question you want to explore, reach out.

Email: Brian@TransformingLives.Coach

Phone: +1 917.653.5198

Website: TransformingLives.Coach

In this episode of Qonversations, Brian Gorman speaks with Keith Metcalfe, President of ACORN, a software and technology company focused on learning, performance, and capability development. Together, they explore the gap between leadership intent and employee experience, especially when it comes to feedback, performance reviews, career growth, and the everyday support people need to progress in their work.

Keith brings a practical lens to a problem many organizations struggle to solve. Leaders may say they want to develop people, but without clear role definitions, meaningful competency models, specific feedback, and usable development plans, that intent rarely translates into employee experience. The result is familiar: performance reviews that feel unfair, development conversations that go nowhere, and employees who are left unclear about what growth actually looks like.

The conversation addresses AI, not as a replacement for human leadership, but as a tool that can make previously difficult development practices more achievable. Keith explains how ACORN uses AI to help organizations create competency-based development plans and provide leaders with the language and structure needed for better conversations.

But technology alone is not enough. Brian and Keith discuss why AI is also creating discomfort for leaders. As information becomes more available and employees become more capable, traditional hierarchy carries less weight. Leaders are being pushed back toward the fundamentals: clarity, humility, servant leadership, experimentation, and meaningful support for the people they lead.

This episode is a conversation about development, but it is also a conversation about leadership maturity. AI may help automate parts of the process. It may make better systems possible. But the deeper question remains human. Are leaders willing to create the conditions where people can actually grow?

The 2026 State of Learning for AI Fluency report is available here.  

Beginning with the July 2, 2026 release, the show will become Beyond AI: Wisdom at Work. The new name reflects the direction the conversations have been moving for some time: beyond the tools, hype, and noise of artificial intelligence, and into the deeper human questions AI is raising for leaders, organizations, and the future of work.

This is still the same podcast, hosted by Brian Gorman. The focus remains on thoughtful, grounded conversations with leaders, thinkers, practitioners, and change-makers. What is changing is the frame. Beyond AI: Wisdom at Work will clearly explore the intersection of AI, leadership, culture, trust, decision-making, ethics, workforce transformation, and human wisdom.

No action is needed from current subscribers. Your subscription will not be disrupted. Beginning July 2, the podcast will simply appear under the new name: Beyond AI: Wisdom at Work.

If something you hear sparks a conversation you want to have, Brian would welcome hearing from you.

In this episode of Qonversations, Brian talks with Jim Spignardo, Director of Cloud Strategy and AI Enablement at ProArc, about why AI implementation is not primarily a technology challenge. It is a leadership challenge.

Too often, organizations measure AI adoption by activity: who is using it, how often, and how quickly. But usage is not the same as value. Without a clear purpose, AI can create fear, shallow adoption, and dehumanizing pressure instead of better work.

Brian and Jim explore what leaders need to define before the tools take over. What is AI for? Is it here to reduce headcount, increase speed, eliminate dull work, strengthen collaboration, or expand human creativity? Those choices shape culture, trust, and the future of work.

The conversation also turns to education, where AI is already challenging assumptions about learning, intelligence, evaluation, and preparation for a changing workplace. At the center is the distinction between intelligence and wisdom, and the need for discernment and critical thinking as AI becomes more capable.

AI can make work more human and humane, or it can deepen practices that reduce people to metrics. The tools will not decide which path we take. Leaders will.

Don’t let AI lead. Lead AI.

In this episode of Qonversations, Brian Gorman is joined by Pete Behrens, author of Into the Fog: Leadership Stories from the Edge of Uncertainty, for a conversation about leading when the path forward is unclear. Pete uses “fog” as a metaphor for the ambiguity and complexity leaders face when old answers no longer fit and new ones have not yet emerged.

Brian and Pete explore how artificial intelligence is intensifying that fog. AI increases the pressure to move faster, decide sooner, and appear more certain. Yet the deeper leadership challenge may be slowing down enough to ask better questions, notice what is changing, and resist the temptation to perform confidence when presence, humility, and discernment are needed.

A central theme is the “messy middle” between decision and destination. Leaders often announce change and expect adoption. Real leadership is often shown after the decision, when people are confused, resisting, grieving, adapting, and trying to make sense of what comes next.

The episode closes with a powerful distinction. Being a leader is not the same as practicing leadership. A title may grant authority, but leadership is a choice available at every level, especially when the way forward is unclear.

In this episode of Qonversations, David Dean, AI technologist, practitioner, and author of An Inbox Between Us, joins Brian Gorman to explore what it means to use AI wisely in real-world settings.

David brings a practical behavioral lens to AI. He explains that every organization has an official system of processes, roles, and documentation, and an unofficial system revealed in inboxes, chat threads, meetings, workarounds, and judgment calls.

AI does not enter a blank slate. It reflects the behaviors already present. That makes AI implementation a leadership issue, not just a technology issue. Used well, AI can create breathing room, surface patterns, reduce backlog, and support better work. Used poorly, it can accelerate confusion, mistrust, and dysfunction.

This conversation is not only for executives in large organizations. It is equally relevant for solopreneurs, individual contributors, and anyone trying to use AI more thoughtfully. The question is not simply, “What can AI do?” It is, “What human work should AI support, and where must judgment remain ours?”

This is practical AI. Not replacement, not hype, not fear, but augmentation grounded in trust, context, and human wisdom.

In this episode of Qonversations, Fred Marshall joins Brian Gorman to explore a question many leaders are only beginning to confront. How do we integrate artificial intelligence into our lives and work without losing ourselves in the process?

Fred, author of Thrive: The Antidote to Future Shock, introduces a practical and deeply human approach to navigating rapid technological change. Rather than treating AI as a replacement for human thinking, he frames it as a strategic partner, one that can help reduce noise, manage complexity, and create more space for what matters most.

Together, Brian and Fred explore the difference between intelligence and wisdom, why innovation is often less about invention than remixing what already exists, and how leaders can avoid being overwhelmed by accelerating inputs and competing demands. They also discuss Fred’s concept of symbiotic intelligence — the emerging partnership between human judgment and AI capability — and why the most important leadership question may no longer be what AI can do, but what humans must continue to do.

If AI can increasingly think with us, what becomes essential for us to protect, strengthen, and cultivate as humans?

In this episode of Qonversations, Kathy Eastwood, Founder and Chief People Strategist of E Equals Why, joins host Brian Gorman to explore why artificial intelligence may be one of the biggest people and leadership shifts organizations have faced in decades.

Kathy shares why some organizations are beginning to place AI under HR rather than IT, recognizing that the real challenge is not the technology itself, but how people experience, adopt, and respond to change. Together, they examine the pressure leaders face to improve efficiency while maintaining trust, culture, and human connection.

The conversation also explores Conscious Capitalism, purpose-driven leadership, and the growing expectation, especially among younger generations, that organizations lead with something more than profit alone.

As intelligence becomes increasingly abundant, what role must leadership play in protecting what remains distinctly human?

Jamie challenges the growing tendency to view AI primarily through the lens of efficiency and cost reduction. Instead, he makes the case for using AI to free cognitive capacity, amplify critical thinking, and help people innovate in ways that traditional organizational structures often suppress.

Together, Brian and Jamie explore why so many organizations unintentionally stifle innovation through functional silos, why belonging and diverse perspectives matter more than ever in an AI-driven world, and how leaders can rethink the relationship between human intelligence, organizational culture, and technology. They also wrestle with a harder leadership question: if AI can increasingly optimize execution, what remains distinctly human in creating the future?

This conversation is not about whether AI belongs in organizations. It is about whether leaders will use it to reduce human contribution or expand human possibility.

The conversation moves quickly from possibility to responsibility. What happens when decisions driven by efficiency such as automation, layoffs, and optimization begin to reshape lives and communities at scale? And what does leadership require when short-term performance pressures collide with long-term human consequences?

Jeff and Brian land on a clear tension. As machines become more intelligent, the answer is not to become more machine-like. It’s to become more human, more capable of judgment, responsibility, and care. AI may be accelerating change, but it is also creating a crucible. One that will either deepen inequality and disconnection or push leaders to rethink what business is actually for.

This isn’t a conversation about adopting AI well. It’s about deciding what and who it’s all ultimately for.

This conversation starts where most don’t: with the people beneath the headlines. Sam shares what she is seeing firsthand through her coaching work: skilled professionals investing in AI, doing everything “right,” and still finding themselves displaced. Together, Sam and Brian examine the tension between organizational decisions and individual consequences, and the growing gap between efficiency gains and human experience. Among the things they explore are:

• Why AI-driven layoffs are creating frustration, not just fear
• The hidden cost of losing experience, judgment, and institutional wisdom
• The rise of portfolio careers and side gigs as both necessity and choice

The conversation also challenges leaders directly. AI adoption may be a leadership decision, but most organizations are not yet thinking deeply about how to redesign work around human energy, contribution, and meaning. Instead, many are defaulting to efficiency at the expense of engagement, trust, and long-term capability. This isn’t just about jobs. It’s about what work becomes and who it still works for.

If this conversation lands close to home, you’re not alone. The shift is already underway. The question is whether you are reacting to it or helping shape what comes next.

This isn’t about tools. It’s about choice. While many organizations feel pressure to move faster, the real differentiator is not speed. It’s the willingness to pause, question, and own the consequences of what gets deployed. They unpack where those choices truly sit. Formal authority may rest with the C-suite and Board, but insight is often closer to the work, raising a critical question. Are today’s organizations designed to listen, or simply to execute?

The conversation also surfaces a widening gap. Some leaders are building in ethics and safety. Others are moving ahead without fully understanding the systems they’re implementing. Beyond the enterprise, the stakes expand. From education to the future of work, AI is increasing access and capability while raising deeper concerns about what may be lost when the human element is reduced.

AI is expanding what’s possible. Leadership determines what happens next.

In this episode of Qonversations, Emmanuel Gobillot, author of Alive Inside: Unlock Your Leadership Advantage in the Age of AI, joins Brian Gorman to explore a question beneath every AI conversation: “What happens to leadership when intelligence is no longer scarce but agency is?” Drawing from Alive Inside, Emmanuel reframes leadership around what AI cannot replicate: authenticity, intuition, curiosity, compassion, and presence.

But the real tension is this. As AI gets faster and more capable, leaders are quietly being pulled toward outsourcing judgment, trading reflection for speed. And that’s where agency begins to slip. Brian and Emmanuel make it clear. AI can generate answers, but it cannot hold context, feel consequence, or exercise judgment.

This conversation is a call to reclaim your role, to stay curious instead of being certain, present instead of performative, and fully accountable for the decisions you make. Because in the end, either AI will replace leadership or leaders will define what AI becomes. And that starts with one decision. Will you use AI, or will you let it use you? 

In this episode of Qonversations, Jay Jacobson, author of Lead by Legendary Example, funeral home director, and CEO of Jay’s Cookies, joins Brian Gorman to explore leadership as lived example rather than instruction. The conversation begins with Jay’s early experience delivering newspapers at age nine: lessons in responsibility, relationships, and empathy that formed his leadership long before it had a name.

They explore Jay’s six pillars of leadership, with a focus on servant leadership and mentorship and how leadership is sustained by what is modeled and passed on. The idea of “edgewalkers” surfaces, along with the courage and self-awareness required to lead between worlds.

The conversation then turns to AI not as a technical issue, but a leadership one. As AI becomes embedded in organizations, ethical use, human oversight, and clear boundaries are leadership responsibilities, not technological ones.

At its core, this is a conversation about what people carry forward based on how you lead.

Drawing on her significant technology leadership experience in financial services during the internet boom and her book Fit for Uncertainty, Lead with Purpose, Adapt to Change, Marianne makes a clear case. Traditional top-down leadership models cannot keep up

with the probabilistic, fast-moving nature of AI.

The conversation moves beyond theory into practice. Marianne and Brian explore why leadership must become more distributed, why communication, not control, is now the core leadership capability, and why culture is no longer a backdrop but the system that determines whether AI creates value or risk. They also challenge a common assumption: that AI replaces human work. Instead, Marianne emphasizes augmentation where human judgment, oversight, and collaboration become even more essential as systems grow more complex.

Throughout the discussion, a deeper tension emerges. As AI expands what organizations can do, leaders must rethink how decisions are made, who makes them, and what guardrails are required before those decisions become embedded into how the organization operates. This is a conversation about leadership under pressure, where humility, clarity, and shared understanding matter more than certainty. (35 minutes)

Mak offers a sharp lens. AI doesn’t improve thinking; it amplifies it. For critical thinkers, it expands capability. For those stuck in busy work, it accelerates noise. The conversation challenges how we measure productivity in knowledge work, emphasizing reflection, pattern recognition, and the ability to reassess whether the target itself has shifted. It also draws a clear distinction between information and true understanding AI can replicate knowledge, but not the deeper, internalized intelligence that shapes judgment.

As decision making becomes more distributed, critical thinking is no longer optional. It is a leadership requirement. Because the question isn’t whether AI can think. It’s whether we still will. 

In this episode of Qonversations, Logan Kelly joins Brian Gorman to explore the rise of agentic AI, systems that don’t simply respond to prompts but execute tasks autonomously. That shift forces a sharper leadership question. If machines can now perform skilled work, what becomes distinctly human?

Logan, the CEO of agentic AI companies Waxell AI and Callsine, explains how his companies use agentic AI to expand employee capability rather than replace it, while Brian presses on the strategic risk. When AI becomes the strategy instead of the infrastructure, judgment can fall behind adoption. Clean data, strong systems, and clarity of purpose matter more than hype. Speed increases. So does consequence.

They examine how AI is reshaping higher education and talent development. If tools can perform work that once required years of training, memorization is no longer the differentiator. Strategic thinking is. Context is. The ability to see second- and third-order effects becomes more valuable than task execution alone.

The conversation also challenges inherited assumptions about productivity. If AI compresses time and expands output, does the 40-hour workweek still make sense? Or does leadership need to redesign work around human energy rather than tradition? As cognitive load increases, so does the need for recovery, focus, and intentional structure.

The tension running through the episode is simple but urgent. AI can execute at scale. Leadership must decide what is worth executing. The organizations that thrive will not be the fastest adopters. They will be the most discerning. 

Their conversation explores the tension between AI-driven intelligence and human wisdom. While AI can dramatically increase speed, scale, and access to information, Gould argues that successful implementation depends on something machines cannot provide, human judgment. He stresses the importance of leaders balancing efficiency with responsibility, ensuring that technology enhances human decision-making rather than replacing it.

Josh and Brian also discuss the realities many organizations overlook when adopting AI: resistance from stakeholders, the importance of articulating clear value, and the danger of chasing technology without a clear purpose. As Gould notes, the organizations that benefit most from AI are not the ones that adopt it fastest, but the ones that apply it most thoughtfully.

At its core, this conversation asks a deeper leadership question: If intelligence is becoming abundant through machines, how will leaders ensure wisdom remains at the center of their decisions?

A central theme is the power of “edges.” In nature, edges—where ecosystems meet—are sites of heightened productivity and resilience. In organizations, however, boundaries often become rigid and divisive. Ines suggests that innovation and adaptability increase when leaders design for interaction and flow rather than hierarchy and containment.

The conversation also highlights diversity and redundancy as strategic strengths, not inefficiencies. Just as biodiversity protects agricultural systems from collapse, varied perspectives and distributed capability strengthen organizations facing disruption. Brian and Ines extend this thinking into the idea of regeneration by design, moving beyond sustainability toward actively improving systems over time.

Throughout the episode, Ines emphasizes a critical leadership shift. Focus on function, not tools. Nature solves for function with remarkable efficiency and elegance. Organizations that obsess over tools without clarifying function risk complexity without coherence. By observing how ecosystems coordinate, renew, and adapt, leaders can design organizations that are more resilient, innovative, and aligned with the realities of a rapidly changing world.

This episode invites decision-makers to reconsider the structures they have inherited and to explore how expanding organizational “edges” may unlock new levels of collaboration, creativity, and long-term value. 

Too many organizations rush toward AI for speed, automation, or cost reduction. The technology may function, but the value fails because financial metrics were treated as the only definition of success. Edosa explains how misalignment shows up in predictable ways: when lab performance doesn’t translate to real-world results, when pilots don’t scale, when early wins don’t sustain, and when stakeholders define value in fundamentally different terms.

The conversation explores how leaders can avoid those traps by creating cross-functional value teams, developing tools that translate technical capability into human impact, aligning incentives and metrics across functions, and building a shared language around value before writing a single line of code. They also confront a larger shift: as AI commoditizes intelligence, discernment becomes the differentiator. If machines can optimize decisions, leaders must decide what outcomes are worth optimizing in the first place.

Brian describes Edosa’s framework as the kind of guide every leader should keep on their desk and revisit often not because it simplifies AI, but because it sharpens judgment. This episode is a practical, grounded roadmap for leaders who want AI to create genuine human-AI win-wins rather than expensive lessons.

Rather than treating AI as a productivity tool or standalone technology, Steve and Brian explore it as a catalyst for deeper systemic change on the scale of the printing press or steam engine. They discuss how AI can decentralize decision-making, improve visibility across organizations, and free people from administrative overload, while also increasing the demand for human judgment, trust, and leadership. The conversation highlights the leadership work required in an AI-infused world: balancing analytical insight with emotional and intuitive intelligence, creating psychological safety during rapid change, and helping people stay anchored when familiar structures no longer hold.

This episode is for leaders who sense that AI is changing everything and know that adaptability, not armor, will determine what comes next.

The conversation challenges the idea that AI lives primarily within IT. While IT plays a critical role, the most consequential decisions about AI belong with leadership, because AI increasingly shapes workflows, judgment, and organizational behavior. Mike shares what he’s seeing across organizations as they mature in their use of AI, shifting from tool obsession to outcome focus, and creating space for experimentation with oversight.

This episode is an invitation for leaders to pause, reassess how AI is being used today, and recognize when it’s time to seek perspective beyond their own organization—before early choices harden into long-term constraints.

Rather than treating this as an engagement problem to fix, Brian and David frame it as a wisdom challenge: helping people understand why their work matters, how success is defined, and where their energy is best applied. They explore moving beyond activity metrics to meaningful outcomes, the role of sense-making and unlearning in leadership, and why people commit differently when the human impact of their work becomes visible.

As organizations move beyond Industrial-Age assumptions about control and productivity, this episode offers a grounded look at leadership guided by wisdom, not just intelligence, for those who sense that work is changing, even if the language for what’s emerging is still taking shape.

They dig into the risks of relying on AI for complex decisions, including inconsistent or overly generic outputs, and why expertise and discernment are still essential. Wes shares how these gaps show up in real projects and why he advises leaders to pair AI tools with trusted human guidance.

Their conversation moves into creativity, human connection, and the parts of work AI can’t touch. Wes describes how automating technical tasks has allowed him to focus more on listening, relationships, and understanding clients at a deeper level. He also talks about a turning point in his own business that pushed him to elevate relationships over transactions.

Brian and Wes close by comparing different cultural approaches to business, some beginning with relationships, others with deals, and reflect on why the future favors the former. For leaders looking to adopt AI wisely, their advice is simple: choose tools intentionally, stay rooted in your values, and don’t go it alone.

Nicole Doyle is a Strategic People Operations leader with over 10 years experience hiring and leading and 6 years experience driving growth at fast-scaling Series A/B startups. Proven track record of building successful teams, developing global compensation strategies that ensure equity, and building scalable HR infrastructures that align with business objectives. Expert in leadership hiring, global expansion, diversity & inclusion initiatives, and data-driven decision-making to foster high-performing cultures.

Brian Gorman is a speaker, author, podcast host and founder and lead coach at TransformingLives.Coach. A maverick coach, Brian guides those who are forging the way forward from the Industrial Age into the Digital Age. You can email Brian (Brian@TransformingLives.Coach) and learn more about his work on his website TransformingLives.Coach.

Chris Marr is the author of Becoming an Authoritative Coach: Stop People Pleasing, Challenge Your Clients, and Be Indispensable. With thousands of hours devoted to coaching an expansive range of companies, from nimble startups to 7 and 8-figure enterprises, he has unequivocally established himself as a leading expert in the field. Beyond his extensive portfolio in coaching, Chris is a dedicated Stoic Practitioner and Philosopher. His fascination with human behaviour is not a mere interest but a lifelong commitment to understanding the intricacies of human potential.

Brian Gorman is a speaker, author, podcast host and founder and lead coach at TransformingLives.Coach. A maverick coach, Brian guides those who are forging the way forward from the Industrial Age into the Digital Age. You can email Brian (Brian@TransformingLives.Coach) and learn more about his work on his website TransformingLives.Coach.

Liz Weber has been helping businesses strengthen their leadership and improve their processes for over 20 years. She has been named a Top 30 Global Guru on Leadership, a Leadership Influencer to Watch, an HR Influencer to Watch, and a Culture Change Champion. Liz is acutely attuned to the shifting dynamics of Industrial Age to Digital Age leadership, and is intently focused on helping leaders and Boards think differently. Weber Business Services, LLC (WBS) is a management consulting firm that specializes in strategic planning, succession planning and leadership development.

Brian Gorman is a speaker, author, podcast host and founder and lead coach at TransformingLives.Coach. He identifies as a maverick coach, guiding those who are forging the way as leaders in the 21st century. You can email Brian (Brian@TransformingLives.Coach) and learn more about his work on his website TransformingLives.Coach.

Rod Collins is an author, keynote speaker, and leadership coach. He is a leading expert and thought leader on the future of business transformation. Rod’s books, blogs, and speeches inspire through their use of storytelling and leading-edge ideas.

Brian Gorman is a speaker, author, podcast host and founder and lead coach at TransformingLives.Coach. He identifies as a maverick coach, guiding those who are forging the way as leaders in the 21st century. You can email Brian (Brian@TransformingLives.Coach) and learn more about his work on his website TransformingLives.Coach.

Thomas R. Krause, Ph.D. is a world-renowned thought leader focused on decision making, leadership, and behavior in the creation of positive organizational culture. He has designed culture change interventions in the service of the prevention of catastrophic events, and fatalities, including the space shuttle Columbia disaster. Tom is the founder of Behavioral Science Technology, Inc. and Chairman of the Krause Bell Group.

Brian Gorman is a speaker, author, podcast host and founder and lead coach at TransformingLives.Coach. He identifies as a maverick coach, guiding those who are forging the way as leaders in the 21st century. You can email Brian (Brian@TransformingLives.Coach) and learn more about his work on his website TransformingLives.Coach.

Miles Everson is a proven business builder and industry leader and disrupter of the status quo. Since 2019 he has served as the Chief Executive Officer at MBO Partners, the definitive market leader in enabling the future of work and improving the well-being of professionals and businesses throughout the world. Prior to MBO Partners, Miles held several senior roles with PwC over 30 years as Global Advisory and Consulting CEO, leading the company’s Asia Pacific and Americas Advisory and Consulting businesses, eventually becoming the U.S. Advisory/Consulting Vice Chairman. Miles led the first globalization for the Advisory/Consulting practice across the PwC enterprise.

Brian Gorman is a speaker, author, podcast host and founder and lead coach at TransformingLives.Coach. He identifies as a maverick coach, guiding those who are forging the way as leaders in the 21st century. You can email Brian (Brian@TransformingLives.Coach) and learn more about his work on his website TransformingLives.Coach.

Miles Everson is a proven business builder and industry leader and disrupter of the status quo. Since 2019 he has served as the Chief Executive Officer at MBO Partners, the definitive market leader in enabling the future of work and improving the well-being of professionals and businesses throughout the world. Prior to MBO Partners, Miles held several senior roles with PwC over 30 years as Global Advisory and Consulting CEO, leading the company’s Asia Pacific and Americas Advisory and Consulting businesses, eventually becoming the U.S. Advisory/Consulting Vice Chairman. Miles led the first globalization for the Advisory/Consulting practice across the PwC enterprise.

Brian Gorman is a speaker, author, podcast host and founder and lead coach at TransformingLives.Coach. He identifies as a maverick coach, guiding those who are forging the way as leaders in the 21st century. You can email Brian (Brian@TransformingLives.Coach) and learn more about his work on his website TransformingLives.Coach.

Luke, author of The Power of Quiet People (In a World That Favours Loudness), focuses on seven such powers. In this episode of Qonversations, Luke and host Brian Gorman (both of whom identify as quiet people themselves) explore those powers from both the perspective of the quiet person and that of the person who tends to be louder. In doing so, they share some of their own stories as they examine ways in which quiet people contribute to better outcomes when invited to do so. (15 minutes)

Luke Tobin is a dynamic entrepreneur and accomplished business leader with a proven track record of success across multiple industries. As a 3x exited founder, Luke has demonstrated his ability to build and scale businesses effectively. Currently, Luke is the driving force behind Tobin Capital, a venture capital firm reshaping the old VC model with a fresh, innovative approach to investing. . Luke Tobin’s entrepreneurial journey is marked by his strategic vision, international growth, and consistent delivery of exceptional business results. You can learn more about Luke on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/luketobin/) and on his websites: www.luketobin.com  and www.tobincapital.co.uk  The Power of Quiet People is available at no cost here.

Brian Gorman is a speaker, author, podcast host and founder and lead coach at TransformingLives.Coach. He identifies as a maverick coach, guiding those who are forging the way as leaders in the 21st century. You can email Brian (Brian@TransformingLives.Coach) and learn more about his work on his website TransformingLives.Coach.

In his book Don’t Just Have the Soup, Alan Heymann provides 52 analogies “for leadership, coaching, and life.” The analogies touch on everyday experiences such as being brought soup instead of salad at a restaurant, elevator rides, road trips, and even the everything you can eat buffet. As they explore several of Alan’s analogies, he and host Brian Gorman give us something else to reflect on…how these experiences we have every day that can serve as analogies to guide and inform how we lead.

Alan Heymann is a speaker, facilitator, Georgetown faculty member, “introvert whisperer,” and recovering journalist and lawyer. You can find Alan on LinkedIn, as well as his own website: peacefuldirection.com.

Brian Gorman is a speaker, author, podcast host and founder and lead coach at TransformingLives.Coach. He identifies as a maverick coach, guiding those who are forging the way as leaders in the 21st century. You can email Brian (Brian@TransformingLives.Coach) and learn more about his work on his website TransformingLives.Coach.

Jeffrey Beeson is a pioneer of Network Leadership - an approach to leadership that relies on the power of connections. He is convinced that groundbreaking innovation can only come from the power of networks. The founder of Ensemble Enabler, he and his team enable companies to leverage the strengths of their employees and gradually transition themselves into network organizations.

(value@ensembleenabler.com)

Brian Gorman is a speaker, author, podcast host and founder and lead coach at TransformingLives.Coach. He identifies as a maverick coach, guiding those who are forging the way as leaders in the 21st century. TransformingLives.Coach Brian@TransformingLives.Coach

Morag Barrett is an executive coach and leadership expert who helps leaders achieve outstanding results through the power of their professional relationships. At last count Morag and her company SkyeTeam have supported the development of more than 10,000 leaders from 20 countries and on 6 continents. She’s the award-winning author of three books: Cultivate: The Power of Winning Relationships; The Future-Proof Workplace; and her latest book You, Me, We: Why we all need a friend at work (and how to show up as one!). You can take SkyTeam’s Ally Assessment here.

Brian Gorman is a speaker, author, podcast host and founder and lead coach at TransformingLives.Coach. He identifies as a maverick coach, guiding those who are forging the way as leaders in the 21st century. TransformingLives.Coach Brian@TransformingLives.Coach (28 minutes)

Marty Strong is a combat veteran of the U.S. Navy SEAL Teams and holds an undergraduate degree in Business Administration and a graduate degree in Management. He is also a graduate of Villanova University’s Master Black Belt, Lean Six Sigma program. Aside from his CEO duties, Marty enjoys providing virtual mentoring and coaching services for executives and speaking professionally about crisis leadership, strategic vision, and creativity.

Brian Gorman is a speaker, author, podcast host and founder and lead coach at TransformingLives.Coach. He identifies as a maverick coach, guiding those who are forging the way as leaders in the 21st century. TransformingLives.Coach Brian@TransformingLives.Coach

Serena Diamond is the founder of Diamond Solutions Group, LLC. Diamond Solutions Group provides support to leaders as they move their organizations through change. Services include project and program management, facilitation, training, and change management. SDiamond1009@gmail.com

Brian Gorman is a speaker, author, podcast host, and founder and lead coach at TransformingLives.Coach. He identifies as a maverick coach, guiding those who are forging the way as leaders in the 21st century. Brian@TransformingLives.Coach

Hamza Khan is the Co-Founder & Chief Evangelist of SkillsCamp and the best-selling author of "Leadership, Reinvented: How to Foster Empathy, servitude, Diversity, and Innovation in the Workplace." HamzaKhan.Ca Hamza@HamzaKhan.Ca

Brian is a speaker, author, podcast host, and founder and lead coach at TransformingLives.Coach. He identifies as a maverick coach, guiding those who are forging the way as leaders in the 21st century. TransformingLives.Coach Brian@TransformingLives.Coach

Michael (Michael.Thompson1978@gmail.com) is the author of Shy by Design: 12 Timeless Principles to Quietly Stand Out. A career coach, leadership lecturer, and communication strategist featured in Business Insider, MSN, and Fast Company, Michael and his family live outside Barcelona. Brian is founder of TransformingLives.Coach. He identifies as a maverick coach, guiding those who are forging the way as leaders in the 21st century. (Brian@TransformingLives.Coach)

Stina is Founder and CEO of Keymaker Services (Stina@KeymakerServices.com, https://keymakerservices.com). Brian is founder and leadership and transformation coach at TransformingLives.Coach. (Brian@TransformingLives.Coach) 

DeVon is CEO of Ascension Strategies (info@ascensionstrat.com, https://www.ascensionstrat.com). Brian is the founder and leadership coach at TransformingLives.Coach (Brian@Transforminglives.Coach) 

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